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Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Thursday September 30, 2021 @03:49PM (#28710518)
They can only do that by holding onto to supply which makes shortages worse. The same thing happens with ticket scalping at concerts, the difference is it’s more obvious that a sold out concert has empty seats vs supply sitting in a warehouse on the off chance it can be sold at 100x prices.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by skybrian on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:16PM (#28711408)
Empty seats mean someone screwed up but how can you tell that a group of empty seats is unused due to a scalper, versus some group of people who couldn’t make it?

When speculators don’t screw up, one fewer part being sold now means one more part that can be bought later. Delaying sales of some parts makes the shortage worse earlier and better later. Keeping inventory is a service to people who didn’t plan ahead.

Sometimes people do screw up, buying things that are never used, so they lose money due to the waste. But you can’t assume they’re all screwups.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Thursday September 30, 2021 @07:35PM (#28712571)
Your right concerts make it hard to tell why seats are empty however unsold inventory is part of the basic business model of reserving a section of supply at higher prices not simply a mistake.

Airline seats are a better comparison. Airlines keep raising prices as inventory gets sold and flights near. However, that approach means they generally fly with significant unused excess capacity. The reverse approach where prices got cheaper as the flight neared would result in increased occupancy though significantly less total revenue.

The discrepancy shows up because buyers may be willing to pay radically different prices. A business traveler may be willing to book a last minute seat at 3x the price a holiday traveler who’s booking 6 months in advance. Hypothetically, making a 50/50 bet on a 3x sale is clearly a good idea but it means 50% of the time that seat sits unused.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by roenxi on Friday October 01, 2021 @03:53AM (#28715800)
That needs to be sourced from somewhere; the classic understanding of airlines is they usually overbook [0] and rely on people not turning up.

In fact, the whole "lets not sell our inventory, we'll make higher profits!" idea here is suspect. The idea that having unsold inventory in the model is a good idea is just false; having inventory left over is always undesirable. If it was sold at the last minute then they would have more profits. The scalpers are incentivised to minimise leftover inventory to the point where it isn't going to be a big deal.

[0] https://www.travelperk.com/blog/overbooking-airlines-quick-g...

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Friday October 01, 2021 @06:50AM (#28716775)
It isn’t a question of what happens on specific flights, it’s a question of what happens generally. Global load factors are ~85% which is a long way from constantly overbooked.

Pre pandemic to get a normal picture: https://www.airlineratings.com/news/packed-planes-new-normal...

Low cost US carriers have a load factor of 90% that’s a trade off between fixed aircraft size and variable demand. However, US carriers only average a load factor of 86.5% meaning legacy carriers like American Airlines have a below 86.5% capacity factor and that difference between 90% and ~85% is exactly the optimization I am talking about.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by roenxi on Friday October 01, 2021 @07:25AM (#28717029)
I'm guessing that is a statistical artefact. They'd be running routes that are completely packed in one direction and not so full in the other due to seasonal effects or due to day/night cycles. So even if they were trying to overbook they'd still have quite empty planes much of the time.

85% capacity use of an asset is really quite high. If they managed to achieve mid-high 90s that would be startling given how good humans are at missing flights and changing plans.

To repeat myself, if the plan is to leave your capital unutilised for 15% of the time, on purpose, when there is an alternative, then the planner is a lousy capitalist and doomed to soon be a broke one.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Friday October 01, 2021 @08:10AM (#28717415)
> I'm guessing that is a statistical artifact.

No, it’s a difference in business models. Low cost carriers approach things very differently. https://youtu.be/1-uNMj57Y4c

It’s not that their wasting this 15% of their unused seats airlines are simply more profitable with this pricing model.

“While you might expect the airlines to lower their prices a few days before the departure day to occupy the last seats, the opposite is true: Selling 20% of the remaining seats for $1,500 is more profitable than selling half of them for the regular fare of $550.” https://flightfox.com/tradecraft/how-do-airlines-set-prices

Further that’s a statistical average, they might not have any last minute travelers on flight X or they might sell out flight Y 1 hour before departure. As airlines can’t both raise and lower prices at the last minute they A reserve seats for the possibility and B frequency lose the gamble.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by roenxi on Friday October 01, 2021 @08:23AM (#28717529)
Well, sure, but that is assuming that the market is exactly 85 people. If we hold the number of people fixed and it is impossible to sell all of the inventory then holding back inventory is much more effective - because we have assumed it is impossible to sell.

The hypothetical in that article would make more money if they sold 80 seats at $495, 15 seats at 900 and then 5 at $1500 (that makes $60,600). There are strong incentives here to fill the seats.

And they are doing the scalpers trick where someone desperate to get on the flight can. As opposed to when the good would be overbought and someone willing to pay $1,500 has to start paying off passengers for their booking instead of giving more money to the people who put planes in the sky.

Plus, if we're both running this strategy, I have huge incentives to offer $1,495 seats to steal your high paying customers off you. It just doesn't work as a strategy unless it is already impossible to fill the plane - which is quite likely the case.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Friday October 01, 2021 @11:31AM (#28719765)
No, the math works fine. Ignoring baggage fees and first class vs catch etc. If you have a flight with 300 identical seats and you could sell everyone single one of them for say 100$ and that’s your maximum possible revenue from a single price point. Now the question becomes how do you capture value from people willing to pay more than 100$? You can play some games with round trip tickets and minimum stays, but again let’s ignore that and just focus on the ramp up.

If you designate say 75% of your ticks at a lower price of X then some people willing to pay more will just buy at that price. Essentially the trick is to minimize people who are willing to pay more who end up buying cheaper tickets. And it turns out people booking close to the flight are generally willing to pay more. Sure six months out they still sell off up to 75% of tickets at ~100$ raising or lowering prices based on demand so their losses are limited if nobody else buys the ticket the flight is still mostly full. But at that 75% they start the ramp up and they also ramp things up as the flight gets close.

2 weeks out they say all tickets are 200$ even if some of those 75% are unsold. At the last day bump it to 400$. If over 1 month we can ignore seats at 100$ because that’s unchanged. Sell 1,000 seats at 200$, and 500 seats at 400$ and fly with say 1500 empty seats that’s 400,000$ where you would only make 300,000$ if all 3,000 seats where sold for 100$. But what if they dropped prices at the last hour? Well most of the time they have empty seats so many would avoid the 400$ ticket and would tend to wait around for that window especially for flights from A to B leaving every hour. Peak prices are a game of chicken and they can’t blink or they lose billions in revenue.

This is of course heavily simplified but it does demonstrate the basic trick I am talking about where they extract value from unsold inventory.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by roenxi on Friday October 01, 2021 @12:00PM (#28720141)
You're running in to a pretty fundamental problem with the maths here - if we have Retric-Air and Roenxi-Air, Roenxi-Air is going to be making more money because my plan is to copy your plan then sell a couple of extra $100 cheap tickets to fill the plane up. Your strategy is completely dominated by a strategy that just does that and sells a few more tickets. You're segmenting the market, I'm segmenting the market and fully utilising my capital.

I can tell you why the airlines would be planning on having empty seats in practice - because there are sometimes literally not enough people interested in travelling to fill the aircraft, so they adopt a strategy of leaving empty seats because they have no other option. If you've ever flown some god-awful connecting flight at 2am you might have seen that in action yourself. But that isn't because the airline is choosing to reserve seats, they'd much rather have more passengers - that just isn't an option.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Friday October 01, 2021 @04:56PM (#28723320)
> copy your plan then sell a couple of extra $100 cheap tickets to fill the plane up.

How and or when exactly to you plan to sell those tickets?

Do it after the price hike and people will just wait.

Do it before and you need to see the future to know how many seats will eventually be sold otherwise you just traded a 400$ ticket for a 100$ ticket. It’s no more a viable option than suggesting it’s easy to win the lottery just pick the correct numbers.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by roenxi on Friday October 01, 2021 @08:18PM (#28724808)
I agree with the logic; it would need to be before. I'd use statistics and a team of actuarial types to try and get the numbers right. It wouldn't be perfect, nothing ever is.

Your strategy has the same problem - you have to predict how many last minute travellers there are too. If you just leave an unnecessary buffer then the strategy fails. The one of us who does a better job of putting exactly 100 bodies in 100 seats - none left over - is going to have a more profitable airline. That is somewhat core to the argument us pedant capitalists make.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Friday October 01, 2021 @09:01PM (#28725064)
I completely agree they would try and maximize revenue by selling as close to the correct amount of tickets as possible.

It’s just the math works out so on the margin having even slightly better than a 1 in 4 chance of selling at 4x the prices is a net gain. Suppose their reserving 50 seats and have a 26% chance of selling all 50, only a 50% chance of selling 20 or more.

That means on 1/2 of flights their intentionally flying with 30 or more empty seats, but reserving even 49 seats rather than 50 loses them money.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by skybrian on Thursday September 30, 2021 @07:49PM (#28712679)
Fair enough, my explanation was simplified and yield management is complex. Planes are full so airlines seem to be be doing better at it, though.

What raises the difficulty is that tickets expire - not a problem with selling electronic parts, though they do eventually become obsolete.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by abfan1127 on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:10PM (#28711340)
this is false. the supply would be gone at those low prices. Now they can be had for those who want it badly enough.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by basilgohar on Thursday September 30, 2021 @07:56PM (#28712748)
Your statement is false. Demand would be met with an increase in supply, satisfying all needs for the product and without the "help" of scalpers who sidestep supply-and-demand by artificially creating scarcity to drive up demand for their own profit. This is no help to anyone but themselves.

If there's a legitimate demand that will be used, then there's a good case for production to be increased to meet such demand, and all parties who need something would have their needs met.

At no point to scalpers make this system more efficient – they just serve to extract a greater profit from consumers and businesses for their own benefit by the aforementioned artificial scarcity that they make. This is also known as cornering the market, a well-known and despised practice that has been frequently used by morally corrupt individuals who sought only to benefit themselves. Nowhere can nor should the argument be made that scalpers help anyone but themselves.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by lmm on Thursday September 30, 2021 @10:39PM (#28713883)
> Demand would be met with an increase in supply, satisfying all needs for the product and without the "help" of scalpers who sidestep supply-and-demand by artificially creating scarcity to drive up demand for their own profit. This is no help to anyone but themselves.

There's no "artificial" demand. Think about it - the "scalper" isn't going to buy something that they can't sell on, they'd just lose money that way. (Maybe some of them make bad judgements - but they'll naturally go out of business in that case).

> If there's a legitimate demand that will be used, then there's a good case for production to be increased to meet such demand, and all parties who need something would have their needs met.

"Scalpers" improve the quality of that signal and make it easier to increase production with confidence.

> This is also known as cornering the market, a well-known and despised practice

Views on true corners are certainly mixed (there's an argument that it punishes dishonest market makers), but in any case it only applies to buying up the whole supply, which no individual "scalper" does or can.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by nitrogen on Thursday September 30, 2021 @10:49PM (#28713936)
Think about it - the "scalper" isn't going to buy something that they can't sell on, they'd just lose money that way.

The only reason they can sell something on is because they created an artificial scarcity of the thing. If widget X has a well-matched supply and demand, and a scalper decides to buy 10% of widget X, then 10% of the demand is now unmet, some of the buyers go out of business, and the maker of widget X now has 90 something % of their previous market.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by lmm on Thursday September 30, 2021 @11:52PM (#28714285)
> The only reason they can sell something on is because they created an artificial scarcity of the thing. If widget X has a well-matched supply and demand, and a scalper decides to buy 10% of widget X, then 10% of the demand is now unmet, some of the buyers go out of business, and the maker of widget X now has 90 something % of their previous market.

If that happens, then the price drops, and the "scalper" loses money - demand has some elasticity, and a healthy market has some slack in it. Momentum-trading speculation works sometimes, but anyone who uses it as their sole strategy will go bankrupt sooner or later.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Thursday September 30, 2021 @10:58PM (#28713978)
> The scalper isn’t going to buy something they can’t sell on

That assumes they have perfect information which they don’t they can only estimate demand. It’s perfectly rational for a scalper to regularly purchase more tickets than they sell due to the kind of markup their looking for. At say 4x they could on average sell 1/2 the tickets while doubling their investment.

And of course that assumes they never run into logistical issues.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Lord_Baltimore on Friday October 01, 2021 @12:03AM (#28714372)
1. No one assumes that they have perfect information. No one says this is perfect just better than the other ways to handle these situations!

2. Who do you think will consistently have better information than someone whose sole goal is to sell these tickets?

3. If they are consistently losing money scalping and not selling tickets they won't be a scalper much longer.

4. This is a dynamic process which can account for changing variables regarding supply and demand quickly as opposed to rules and regulations which do not.

5. If they only sell half the tickets at 4x then they could sell the last half at an extreme discount and make even more than double their investment! Do you think they would rather make more money or less?

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by throwawaythekey on Friday October 01, 2021 @04:17AM (#28715912)
For 5. consider the diamond industry as a real world example of an industry well renowned for aggressively limiting supply.

Scarcity can drive price upwards in an exponential way that ends up making it optimal to not sell all inventory. Sure in an ideal world you would sell everything you can for the maximum price but in the real world the buyer is incentivized to wait until you offer your minimal price.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by lmm on Thursday September 30, 2021 @11:54PM (#28714301)
> It’s perfectly rational for a scalper to regularly purchase more tickets than they sell due to the kind of markup their looking for. At say 4x they could on average sell 1/2 the tickets while doubling their investment.

True, but in that case they've added more value than they've subtracted. That artists insist on pricing every concert to sell out is a big part of the problem here; you'd get a more functional market by accepting a few empty seats to give some slack.

Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by Retric on Friday October 01, 2021 @06:55AM (#28716804)
Bands want to present the appearance of a successful band, it helps their image. A filled stadium is part of that, so yes they can make more money today by raising prices but that’s making real trade offs.
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by bricemo on Thursday September 30, 2021 @10:19PM (#28713785)
Except increase in supply in chips takes 3-5 years
Re:Chip shortage leads carmaker Opel to shut German plant un... by adamc on Thursday September 30, 2021 @06:03PM (#28711894)
"This is false" isn't much of an argument. If there is an argument, you should probably provide that instead...