Yeah I agree with this in sentiment but the impacts to the rest of society are pretty hard to just let them go do that. Namely burnout at hospitals, regular health procedures being pushed back, people unnecessarily getting infected/dying, etc. There some serious community cost to these hold outs.

Just let people sign a waiver stating they willingly decided to not get vaccinated, and forego treatment at hospitals for any covid-related complications. Problem solved.

That'd be great. I'll also stop paying taxes that cover public healthcare and just use private hospitals while I'm at it.

But it isn't solved. Someone making these choices are killing folks not involved by passing the virus onto others and taking up space in hospitals ill equipped for so many people at once.

It isn't like refusing a cancer treatment on an easily treatable cancer, after all, but rather an infectious disease.

I like the snark. No way that roll out would get any better traction than the vaccine did in that crowd!

Normally I would agree, but right now if I get in a serious car accident there is a decent chance there won't be an ICU available at my nearest hospital because they're all full of COVID patients.

I stop tolerating your idiocy once it's consequences begin to affect me.

Doesn’t this apply to fat people who end up in hospital too? Or smokers? They’re taking your ICU bed and should be forced to lose weight

Obesity rates and the disease's effects on healthcare demand are well known. Hospitals are built based on predictions of how many types of patients and diseases they will treat. The mitigation of effects of obesity are built into our healthcare system already.

What throws a wrench into all of that planning, and ability to predict and respond to healthcare demand, is a novel pandemic that sends massive amounts of people to the ICU, which the healthcare system was never built to handle.

sort of, but not quite. you've articulated a good argument for something like a fat tax, but being fat doesn't immediately make others around you fat. (yes, you can be a bad influence on someone, but that won't land them in the icu in 2 weeks).

but of course you already knew that.

But it does fill up ICU beds. The vaccines are not very effective at stopping spread of the delta variant so the metaphor still holds.

it is a really bad metaphor.

what fills up icu beds? obesity? not acutely, that will take years to infect another person.

the vaccines are not great at stopping the spread of delta but they are great at preventing people who get it from going to the hospital.

> the vaccines are not great at stopping the spread of delta

that's not an accurate take on how the vaccines work against delta.

the vaccine makes it so you are much less likely to get the virus in the first place. it also shortens the time you are infectious to other people if you do get a breakthrough case since your bodies immune system response goes into effect immediately and not after a while. an extremely simplified view is: antibodies neutralize free floating viral particles(antigens). B cells create antibodies. T cells tell B cells to go make antibodies and also kill infected cells with cytotoxins.

when you are vaccinated your T cells and B cells already know what to do if they see viruses so they can mount a defense immediately and it shortens the infectious period. in addition you will still have antibodies left over(i am unsure if you still make more for a period of time after the vaccine without any antigens) from when you got the vaccine so you will have a lower likelihood of getting sick in the first place since the antibodies can neutralize the antigens before they have a chance to infect too many cells and create more antigens.

by the nature of not getting sick in the first place and by not being infectious for as long the spread of delta is slowed

Diabetes and obesity is a risk factor in almost every ailment including cancer and heart disease, not to mention Covid itself. Of course it contributes to filling up ICUs.

are you intentionally straw manning me? i specifically acknowledged what you're claiming, and have been clear about how that doesn't make it comparable to something as fast acting as a virus.

you're fighting a point that has not been made.

I guess I misunderstood. Both being obese and being unvaccinated are risk factors for ending up in the ICU due to Covid. One is morally reprehensible according to some people and the other isn’t. I think we should accept both or none.

yeah fair enough, i appreciate the social disconnect there

The difference is there aren't enough of them to bring our healthcare system to it's knees. Hospitals in many states are having to ration care, and triage patients right now. Before the pandemic, this only happened in rare emergencies (terrorist attacks, mass shootings)

No because those people don't tend to fill up all hospital beds at once.

It's a reminder of a bigger unresolved societal issue - how the healthcare resources are to be distributed to patients. Should vaccinated get preference? Young ones? Wealthy? Political class? Celebrities?

In whole world, they all do, and I am not sure it is always the right way things should work. We should have enough beds and staff to care for all people in need. Even those not in preferred societal classes or not with the right political views or even those who did some bad medical decisions.

Hospitals are a business. They only have room for patients as long as it is profitable. Covid pays the best right now so that is where they are focusing their business.

I'd agree if we were talking something akin to choosing not to take insulin even though you can easily afford it or refusing to treat an easily treatable cancer.

If you catch covid, there is a good chance you'll pass it onto others, unlike the previous maladies. And that is a real problem: Some of those people will die, most will pass on the virus to others, and a good number of folks wind up in the hospital.

And that's happening so much that folks are dying from non-covid things as well.

Pretty much, if you choose to die from Covid, you are going to take others down with you.

Unfortunately there's so many of these idiots they're clogging up the hospitals. I don't know why they don't just "do their own research" and die at home.

One of those "idiots" clogging the hospitals is my friend's mom. Daughter asked her to get the vaccine. An apparently healthy and not a very old woman ended up in the hospital with ventricular thrombosis three days after the first shot.

The “idiots” comment refers to people who did not get the vaccine and are hospitalized with Covid. So not your friend’s mom.

Why do you think an anecdote where you don't even know all the details matters?

At least you didn't accuse me of lying right away. I'll give it another 10 minutes.

Why accuse you of lying when we can point out that anecdotes should carry nearly zero weight in comparison to statistics?

That's the funny thing about statistics. Once you are the unlucky 0.001%, you won't be thinking about it.

That's the funny thing about statistics. They say you're more likely to get unlucky due to covid than due to a covid vaccine.

For the same reason the body positive types don't, people who drink or smoke etc. Society in general tolerates ones bad decisions.

Hey Robert, I see you’re in New York City. Would you be comfortable explaining your comments to the 2/3 of black New Yorkers who are hesitant to get the vaccines?

>Hey Robert, I see you’re in New York City. Would you be comfortable explaining your comments to the 2/3 of black New Yorkers who are hesitant to get the vaccines?

Your tone is both unwelcome and doesn't add to the discussion. And "2/3" isn't even close to being right[0].

Which makes me stretch hard to find good faith in your musings.

[0] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.p...

Are you comfortable explaining why black Americans are overwhelmingly stuck with worse schools, worse access to healthcare, and generational poverty?

Lack of parenting.

A very very American thing of you to say.

Today I remembered why I shouldn’t engage with idiots.