News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by ncmncm on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @06:10AM (#28681057)
Especially with a law.

The police generally consider laws to be for little people. In the US, any law that is supposed to apply to police has to not depend on the District Attorney ever filing charges, because they won't, except for certain high-visibility murders, and usually not even then.

Something that has worked sometimes is a state or federal law affecting city police. The law should have provisions to allow citizens to initiate enforcement, and, for egregious offenses, provisions to restrict the convicted officer from working in other police departments.

Too often, departments appear to respond to public pressure by firing the officer. But that actually achieves very little; the officer just goes to work for another city, with a fresh, clean record. There are a lot of cities.

It would be helpful to establish a national registry of police behavior, so that offenses at one department follow them to the next.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by wccrawford on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @08:27AM (#28681979)
OTOH, the laws that work against cops are the ones that invalidate the things they do on their day jobs. If they violate the law and a suspect goes free, that has actual consequences for them, mentally at least.

Of course, they still have to get caught, but it won't be the DA that has to do something about it, it's the defendant's lawyer who will do it.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by int0x2e on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @09:08AM (#28682310)
I agree, but this only helps if they're actually going after someone they charge with something. If they are merely violating your rights but don't charge you, this would have little to no impact on police wrongdoing.
Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by ncmncm on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @09:20AM (#28682418)
Actual consequences? So, the cop cracks your skull, but the judge lets you go, and the cop continues cracking skulls, maybe yours again.

Your lawyer maybe sues the department for use of excessive force, and maybe gets a settlement from the taxpayers. Again, with exactly zero effect on the crooked cop.

Maybe lawyers should be suing the police union, too.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by 14 on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @09:41AM (#28682666)
Some people have been pushing for persona liability with the police. I think we could assume in this better world we are dreaming of where citizens can arrest an officer they also have personally liability.
Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by TheSoftwareGuy on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @12:02PM (#28684361)
>Of course, they still have to get caught, but it won't be the DA that has to do something about it, it's the defendant's lawyer who will do it.

But unfortunately, this means that anybody who can't afford a good lawyer, will be an easy target for trampling on their rights

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by darksaints on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @09:24AM (#28682464)
Allowing citizens to initiate enforcement sounds like a potentially good idea. Are you saying that citizens can prosecute police on behalf of the state? Where has it been tried before?

I might have some reservations with this, but proving that cops committed crimes is actually extremely commonplace. It happens in criminal courtrooms on a daily basis, as the primary vector to get evidence thrown out against a defendant. When cops commit crimes while gathering evidence, those criminal actions taint the evidence.

The problem is that nobody ever prosecutes the cops for the crime. The evidence gets thrown out, criminals walk free, and then nothing happens after that. It would be nice if the same defense attorney that proved the cop acted unlawfully could follow up by putting the cop in prison.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by djbebs on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @09:55AM (#28682816)
To be perfectly honest I see no reason why all the prosecutorial powers vested exclusively on the state should be exclusive to the state.

There should be nothing that the executive branch does in terms of investigation and prosecution, that the average citizen should be legally barred from doing.

This includes prosecuting crimes in criminal court, requesting and enforcing warrants, and so on.

The only difference between an average citizen and the government employees doing these things should be that the government employes are being paid to do these things as a full time job.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by elliekelly on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @01:09PM (#28685050)
Some states (like Pennsylvania[1], for example) do have a process for "private criminal complaints". It's not without major drawbacks. The process can be (and has been) abused by people who simply want to make life difficult for others.

Texas also recently took the concept you've described but implemented the inverse with SB-8[2] which allows citizens to do precisely what the government itself is legally barred from doing.

[1]https://www.pacodeandbulletin.gov/Display/pacode?file=/secur...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Heartbeat_Act

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by zepto on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @10:14AM (#28683014)
That would result just in sovereign citizens doing an unlimited amount of paper terrorism.
Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by djbebs on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @10:42AM (#28683381)
As opposed to the state?

Simply add a cost to prosecutions that fail, with it going towards the winner.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @11:00AM (#28683588)
> with it going towards the winner.

The cops will abuse the shit out of that. That gives them a monetary incentive to botch investigations when their buddies are involved.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by jdasdf on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @12:46PM (#28684816)
Hence the:

>There should be nothing that the executive branch does in terms of investigation and prosecution, that the average citizen should be legally barred from doing.

>This includes prosecuting crimes in criminal court, requesting and enforcing warrants, and so on.

>The only difference between an average citizen and the government employees doing these things should be that the government employes are being paid to do these things as a full time job.

If the cops botch their investigations... Well there's nothing stopping anyone else from conducting their own. Might as well conduct one into the cops botching of the investigation too.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by darksaints on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @11:21AM (#28683859)
What makes you think someone prosecuting a police officer would rely on the police investigating the officer?
Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by anchpop on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @02:04PM (#28685633)
they already have an incentive to botch investigations when their buddies are involved. Maybe this makes the incentive slightly greater but you shouldn’t rely on cops to investigate their buddies anyway
Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by zepto on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @02:13PM (#28685733)
> As opposed to the state?

Ok, so you consider the state to be equivalent to sovereign citizens?

Also, how about investigations that never go to a prosecution? It’s pretty simple to harass someone that way.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by djbebs on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @03:34AM (#28691182)
Yes?

I dont see why the state should be considered special. Ultimately it is supposed to work for the people, is it not? It's powers are delegated to it by the people.

I dont see "only the state should have the right to harass people" as a legitimate argument.

If it's simple to harass someone that way, then making it available to everyone will increase the need to fix a broken system where people can be arbitrarily harassed.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by zepto on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @09:51AM (#28693655)
The sovereign citizens aren’t elected.

> If it's simple to harass someone that way, then making it available to everyone will increase the need to fix a broken system where people can be arbitrarily harassed.

Making a broken system worse does increase the need to fix it, but it doesn’t mean it gets fixed, it just means we have a worse need.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by djbebs on Wednesday September 29, 2021 @12:13PM (#28695738)
What does being elected or not have to do with it? Violent mobs also have democratic legitimacy, but somehow I doubt you'll think they should have a right to harass you.

And on the contrary, it is by making the situation unbearable for everyone that popular and political will to change a broken system is created.

The worst thing that can happen is for an injustice to be prolonged just because it only affects a select group of people that those in power dislike.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by zepto on Thursday September 30, 2021 @05:44AM (#28704597)
> Violent mobs also have democratic legitimacy,

No they don’t.

> And on the contrary, it is by making the situation unbearable for everyone that popular and political will to change a broken system is created.

When has that ever worked?

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by mindslight on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @12:30PM (#28684652)
One of the problems is that there are different types of "illegal". The laws we're familiar with specify both that doing something is illegal, and also spell out a penalty for violation. But benerally the laws that set out government procedures don't specify any consequences for failing to follow the procedure.

So the best that can happen after years of court time (with the government agents being paid the whole time), is a court judgement to stop doing something. There is no personal liability for the offending agents, no liquidated damages for the victims, no conspiracy charges for management's illegal policies, etc.

In general, the state has a massive blindspot towards damages that it itself inflicts. As we can expect from any natural system, it has settled into creating ever more externalities. Cops have been abusing "you might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride" for forever. Now that moral hazard is everywhere.

In a just society, much of the state's activities would be viewed as just another actor on a level playing field, and would therefore be directly liable the damages it itself causes to innocent parties.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by darksaints on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @01:13PM (#28685094)
I agree with you to some extent, but a lot of the corrupt behavior of police is actually illegal with explicit laws and sentencing. For example, "you might beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride". That is an arrest without probable cause, as if the officer thinks that the defendant can beat the rap, he doesn't have enough evidence to arrest. That is a chargeable offense known as Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law, and it carries a max penalty of 10 years in prison.

The biggest problem is our chickenshit prosecutors, not a lack of criminal laws that apply to the police. We could have more, certainly, but we don't even apply the ones we have.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by mindslight on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @05:43PM (#28687887)
I agree with what you're saying too, and the problem needs to be attacked from every angle it can be.

However, referencing a completely different law kind of makes my point. Straight "kidnapping" and "false imprisonment" would be the appropriate charges. Yet the corrupt cop is still allowed to hide behind their nominal position, despite deliberately acting outside its authority.

When I wrote my comment I was thinking of the TSA, which has done many things that were later slapped down by the court, but with no punishment for having violated the law for so long. Because despite being illegal, their actions were "policy" and thus apparently every crime they already committed is let slide.

If the problem were just corrupt prosecutors, then we would expect to still see plenty of civil suits - individuals can still sue on their own. Yet if you ask an attorney about doing so, they'll just laugh. And even when the situation is serious enough to warrant a civil suit, it's still the city getting sued rather than the person who happens to be employed as an officer. The equivalent in the tech world would be cracking as a hobby, and when caught passing the responsibility off to your employer because you were using your work-provided laptop. But obviously that doesn't fly in the private sector.

Re:It’s not easy to control police use of tech, even with a law by bsenftner on Tuesday September 28, 2021 @07:42AM (#28681633)
I just took a look, and "bad cop database" appears to be a new start up vector, littered with dubious websites.