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Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by darthvoldemort on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:48PM (#28632582)
There are probably multiple different causes for RSI in programmers, but for me, a regular keyboard is fine. Even my slouch is fine. I type with my elbows on the table and it's fine.

It's the mouse that killed me. A handful of years after graduating from college, I thought my programming career was over because the pain in my neck and shoulders was so bad I couldn't type. I went to a bunch of doctors, neurologists, physiotherapy, etc but nothing helped, not even medication.

It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit. I changed my entire set up so that my mouse is away from my keyboard when I type, and when I need to use the mouse, I push my keyboard away and have the mouse on the table in the center of my body, with my wrist slightly twisted so that it mimics writing with a pencil. That's also why Macbooks and similar laptops are fine with my because it's in the middle.

Once I switched to this technique, my carpal tunnel went away. It's been over 25 years now with no pain. Like I said, different people probably have different causes of carpal tunnel, but for me this was the precise reason.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by NortySpock on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:02PM (#28632752)
Congrats on finding and resolving your carpal tunnel problem. I switched to a basic wireless trackball[1] about 5 years into my career (10 years in industry) which has kept me mostly pain free since I can avoid moving my wrist.

Still might need to look for a better keyboard and a slightly better trackball, but for anyone reading this with minor pain: don't ignore it. Try new things early and try to reduce your pain, even minor twinges as much as possible early, since, well, I expect to be in this game for the long haul.

[1] Logitech M570

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by darthvoldemort on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:13PM (#28632899)
Thanks, good luck to you on finding a completely pain-free solution!

This is the late 90s, so neurologists and other doctors weren't very useful at all. One even suggested surgery to correct my problem which got me really scared I might be out of the profession and wondering what I could do.

What I found out was that there's a nerve that runs all the way down your arm into your hand/wrist, and when I twisted my right hand outward to use the mouse, it was pinching this nerve constantly. But instead of having pain in my wrist or forearms, it was causing pain in my neck and shoulders. This is a well-known phenomenon called "referred pain" where the body might not have the proper pain receptors to show pain in one area, so it sends the pain signals elsewhere.

I started to wonder why I could write notes with a pen for hours and hours throughout college and never had any issues, but a couple of years out of college, I had such debilitating pain that I almost had to quit. So I bought a mouse that had the form factor of a pen and tried to recreate my experience writing by moving my keyboard away and using the pen mouse the way I would when I write with a pen. It was a very primitive mouse with a roller ball the size of a marble at the tip, but it completely worked. After the pen mouse died in 9 months, I tried to recreate my wrist angle in a similar way as the pen mouse with a normal mouse and it worked as well. As I said, I've adopted this convention and people comment on how weirdly I hold the mouse, but I've been pain free ever since.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by NortySpock on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:58PM (#28634453)
Is it a "vertical mouse" or something different?

examples I've heard of: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-vertical-erg...

https://us.anker.com/products/a7852

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by darthvoldemort on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:53PM (#28635224)
These days you can get an optical mouse that behaves like a pen like this

https://ergonomictrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/pen-m...

I'm not endorsing the one above, just showing what it looks like. The one I had from the late 90s was wired, with a big roller at the tip instead of it being optical.

The main thing is that when you hold a pen, your hand is more up and down rather than flat to the surface of the table, like when you're holding a mouse. Having it up and down is a more natural position for the hand relative to your body and doesn't force it to be twisted away from the body so that I could hold the mouse. That twist was was pinched my nerve for me.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:51PM (#28633498)
Trackball gang unite (?)

I got the ergo one[1] and my wrist pain went away, the key is that now I don't move my wrist anymore.

[1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-ergo-wireles...

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by NortySpock on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:01PM (#28634510)
Nice, I can see the tilt angle is different.

I might need to try either getting the one you linked or perhaps 3D printing a stand to tilt my existing mouse out and experiment.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by asciimov on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:13PM (#28636269)
I've got a love hate relationship with the ergo.

I love the tilt, and the improved build quality.

But I wish it had better battery life, was a size bigger, and had Linux drivers.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by Izikiel43 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:08PM (#28636756)
I would like it to have a better scroll like the fancy mx mouse with inertial scroll. +1 to battery and usb c
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by rtkaratekid on Thursday September 23, 2021 @09:30PM (#28637674)
Man I love it, and my battery lasts weeks! Sorry to hear yours doesn’t. And yeah, I wish it had Linux drivers. I thought I found some software somewhere that allowed this (I don’t really use Linux as a desktop, just terminals). Maybe I’ll try and find it and put a link here.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by asciimov on Friday September 24, 2021 @02:51PM (#28646394)
Yeah, mine lasts 4-6 weeks, but with the Logitech M570 trackball I was getting 6-12 months off of a single AA battery.

The M570 also has a red led that lights up when you need to replace the battery. The ergo doesn't have any such led, so the only sign that you need to recharge it is when it dies.

There are some "drivers" for it but I haven't had much luck with them. What I did find was someone had some scripts I was able to use to get things usable on a 4k monitor: https://gitlab.com/khaytsus/mxergo

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by thraxil on Friday September 24, 2021 @03:59AM (#28639735)
I use the MX Ergo on Linux. Never had to install any drivers. Works perfectly.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by asciimov on Friday September 24, 2021 @02:45PM (#28646310)
My issue is that I use a scaled 4k monitor, and in order to get the mouse to move at a reasonable speed I had to put some xinput commands into my autostart script. It feels hacky, and just wish it had proper support.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by thraxil on Saturday September 25, 2021 @04:20AM (#28651461)
I use two 4K monitors. Haven't really had an issue with movement speed. I can pretty easily send the pointer from one side all the way too the other with one flick of my thumb. I use sway/wayland though, so maybe it's different from X11 on that. I also mostly use the keyboard for desktop navigation, coding, etc. The mouse is almost entirely for clicking on things within a browser window and the occasional Steam game.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by jakub_g on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:12PM (#28632888)
Been using M570 too for some time. However recently I've read that some research suggests that thumb-operated trackballs might do bad things to your thumb and that finger-operated trackballs (like Kensington Expert) are less risky. Worth keeping in mind and digging deeper. (Don't have K.E. but planning to try it out)
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by NortySpock on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:54PM (#28634406)
Thanks for the heads up on thumb-balls not being a perfect solution. Do you have any links handy?
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by jakub_g on Thursday September 23, 2021 @04:49PM (#28635159)
> Thumb-operated trackballs don’t work for everyone. “Overuse of the thumb can result in de Quervain’s tenosynovitis, where extending the thumb becomes a painful movement,

https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-trackballs/a... > "Should you switch to a trackball?"

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by TacticalCoder on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:58PM (#28636112)
> It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit.

I noticed that very early on in my career. Back when keyboards you could reasonably buy always had a keypad at the right of the keyboard.

So what did I do back then? (we're talking early 2000 or so)...

I learned to use my mouse as a leftie.

And to this day I can use my mouse either with the left hand or right hand.

Also I made sure to configure everything so that mouse usage is minimized.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by jamespullar on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:11PM (#28632883)
Something that helped me was setting my mouse to a lower DPI and using my elbow and shoulder for movement. A very high DPI encourages tiny movements with the wrist.

This is also a general recommendation for gamers looking to improve their accuracy with FPS style games. Low DPI, larger arm movements provides higher accuracy.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by bxparks on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:36PM (#28634151)
It was the mouse for me as well. It started to cause sharp pain on the underside of my right elbow. The problem seemed to be the numeric pad on the right side of the keyboard, which pushes the mouse slightly further away from my body, stretching my arm slightly further out.

The solution was to switch my mouse to the left side, where it could be slightly closer to my body. It took a few months of getting used to, but after 10-20 years (can't remember), I've never had pain on my left arm. I have tried going back to right side a few times, just out of curiosity, and the pain on the right arm will come back after a few months.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by porker on Thursday September 23, 2021 @05:14PM (#28635515)
Yes I have had the same elbow pain. It started 5 years after switching my mouse to my left hand due to right arm pain.

A concerted programme of golfer's elbow exercises and creating a split keyboard as described have dealt with the pain.

I am now using a Slimblade trackball and not getting on with it: it causes different pain and 3 months in I am still not accurate.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by megameter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @06:01PM (#28636144)
While I have not used the Slimblade, I did consider it when I last shopped for trackballs and settled for the Orbit instead, which I've owned before and can use for hours at a stretch without issue. I believe the angles of the palm rest are substantially different between the two models and there have been complaints of worse ergonomic properties with the Slimblade, which was enough to dissuade me. It's something that could be adjusted with foam and cardboard(and given a nicer texture with vinyl tape) if you're willing to experiment.

I would also review desk/chair height and other major elements of the setup too. Pain in the extremities can have causation near the hips, back or shoulders so increasingly I favor looking for holistic solutions. Lately I have been doing animal crawl exercises(bear, lizard, crab) and have found that they clear up a lot of minor aches-and-pains issues, so that might be another thing to try.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by anttiharju on Friday September 24, 2021 @03:39AM (#28639623)
> It turns out twisting my right hand outward in order to accommodate my mouse to the right of my keyboard was the culprit.

This has been my experience too. I used to have a TKL keyboard, thought I needed a numpad even though the only times I would've had use for it have been Blender and a GTA V plane flying mission.

Now I've gone down the rabbit hole of split keyboards and ergonomic mice when all I really need is a TKL keyboard. ZSA Moonlander is dope, but it doesn't help the mouse situation.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by jakub_g on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:05PM (#28632803)
Same for me, hence years ago I started using two mice.

It took a few weeks to operate the mouse well with left hand, but now I'm fairly ok with left handed usage. Still using right hand mouse for high precision gestures and when I need left hand on keyboard (when using Tab). Unfortunately the choice for left handed mice is very low and they're expensive;I use a symmetrical Kensington trackball with the left hand.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by baoluofu on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:22PM (#28633950)
I'm the same. Never had an issue with keyboard usage, but started to run into trouble with the mouse usage. I used a wacom tablet as my daily driver for a while but it was a bit too inconvenient. I've found actually that just alternating between a trackpad (left hand) and a mouse (right hand) throughout the day has solved the problem.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by LAC-Tech on Thursday September 23, 2021 @08:53PM (#28637432)
Voted this just because we're all different and this could really be a lightbulb moment for someone with similar issues.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by Taniwha on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:58PM (#28638465)
I had a similar issue, wore a wrist brace for years - my solution was to switch to a laptop with a trackpad - the continual moving my hand to the right to a mouse or trackball was what was doing it - I haven't owned a desktop machine for over 20 years now
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by afiori on Friday September 24, 2021 @12:34AM (#28638668)
I would like a ThinkPad shaped keyboard with mousepad and trackpoint included (the mousepad below the spacebar and mouse button both above and below it)

almost every mouse/keyboard combo has the mousepad on the side which I dislike

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by cweill on Friday September 24, 2021 @12:43AM (#28638709)
I had the same issue and same realization. That's why I always use keyboards without the numpad; that extra 4 inches of space for the mouse relieved most of my computer posture pains.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by superjan on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:57PM (#28632691)
The mouse was also the issue for me but I switched to a trackball. All the work is done by my thumb, no need to move your arm around.
Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by capitainenemo on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:13PM (#28632901)
I loved the kensington expert mouse for that (the old one that was exactly same as a poolball) since it had wonderful heft and could do both palm spins and precision one hand.

But, they stopped producing that particular kind (they were also hard to maintain using a special key to open the case) so I just switched to using my left hand for the mouse on half my computers and right hand on the other half. That was easier than moving equipment around from machine to machine for me and coworkers/family. No RSI since.

Re:Using two keyboards at once for pain relief by Fudgel on Thursday September 23, 2021 @07:40PM (#28636973)
I do the exact same thing towards the end of the day - push the keyboard away and put the mouse center in front of me.