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Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by iamcurious on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:46AM (#28629907)
What's the next China then?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by jillesvangurp on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:24AM (#28630533)
In terms of population growth, India and Nigeria are currently predicted to have the worlds largest population by the end of this century. Both China and India would shrink in population. China by quite a lot.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/the-world-population-...

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by jhallenworld on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:08PM (#28631145)
Also Kenya: it's all about Lagos vs. Nairobi.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by mooreds on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:52AM (#28630028)
Mexico is my vote. Great demographics, great access to the USA market.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by jhallenworld on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:13AM (#28630340)
I can attest that the people there are very hard working, I think most US citizens have no idea. At least this is true for people who are lucky enough to end up as professionals at the many factories that are there. Of course there are still many poor.

One interesting theory I heard about the entire Latin world (explaining why it tends to be poor) is that the old Spanish empire was deliberately modeled to be an extension of aristocratic Roman empire. The problem that this causes is too much power in the hands of aristocrats, with not enough space left for risk-taking entrepreneurs. To the degree that this is true (I'm not sure..), longstanding contact with the US may moderate it in Mexico in particular. Here is a video about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efz4Aket2ao

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by beerandt on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:23PM (#28631348)
There's something to that, in that even among successful Mexican immigrants, there seems to be a (relative) lack of leveraging that success into establishing businesses, or other investments that require long-term commitment.

Whether it's because of proximity, that so many come without family and/or plan on eventually returning home, or the related effect of so much of earnings getting sent back to Mexico every month, but there is definitely a cultural difference of some sort at play.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by lotsofpulp on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:18AM (#28630415)
That is impossible to believe considering you can go to almost every corner of the US and see Mexicans and other people of Hispanic or Latin American origin working in hard, manual labor roles.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by keyboardCowBoy on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:41PM (#28631618)
Maybe they are hard working as they have no choice. Majority of Mexicans work odd jobs. The auto factories there have huge training centers because of extremely high turn over.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by aerostable_slug on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:23PM (#28632262)
Also due to a shoddy educational system and the fact that many drop out of school to work.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by endisneigh on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:14AM (#28630358)
Absolutely no chance. Mexicans are incredibly hard working, but there's basically no way they'll become the next China.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by justicezyx on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:39PM (#28632449)
Mind to list some issues in Mexico's growth prospect?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by Jensson on Friday September 24, 2021 @04:56AM (#28640055)
Mexico isn't poor enough, it is at the same level as current China. The main driver is that a country is way poorer than it ought to be based on other factors such as government efficiency and worker skill. In that scenario companies will flock to the countryin order to leverage the low wages, creating an economic boom which will last until the country is no longer a good deal for those companies.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by robbedpeter on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:22AM (#28630490)
Good luck getting the cartels to finance your factories, and then getting business anywhere the US has pull.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by the_70x on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:19AM (#28630448)
Our demographic bonus is over now and México didn't take advantage of it. Will never happen
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by aerostable_slug on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:25PM (#28632281)
Even without cartels, the corruption problems are huge. I wish them the best of luck, but the fact that an average family spends an integer percentage of their income on bureaucratic bribery doesn't give me warm happy thoughts.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by MangoCoffee on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:27PM (#28633132)
India: its huge young population however India needs a govrt like China to control and plan everything. India's govrt is its own worst problem.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by r4vik on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:46AM (#28629920)
Vietnam and Bangladesh
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by nradov on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:42AM (#28630801)
If sea level rise predictions are accurate then much of Bangladesh is going to have frequent flooding problems. Can they engineer their way around the problem while still growing the rest of the economy?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by r4vik on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:23PM (#28631351)
This might even be a good thing to force hyper urbanisation, can you imaging if the whole country is quickly forced to abandon rural living?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:28PM (#28631427)
Dhaka is to see 30M people by 2030, if not more. The pace of its growth is crazy.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by Ajay-p on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:57AM (#28630086)
I think labor will move to wherever it is cheapest. If China continues with economic irregularities, then Vietnam, Bangladesh, and other SE Asian nations may see enormous investment.

What IF manufacturing pivoted outside of China? What would that do to the global balance of power?

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by LurkingPenguin on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:26AM (#28630568)
Vietnam will continue to see investment and has a bright future, but when thinking about China, it's a mistake to place too much emphasis on labor cost. Yes, the cost of labor is important, but it's not the only factor.

Just a few examples of why China will be tough to dethrone:

- China has a much larger pool of labor. It has literally hundreds of millions of potential migrants who can move from rural areas to urban areas to work in factories. This is multiples of Vietnam's entire population.

- Vietnam is not yet anywhere near competitive with China in terms of skilled labor.

- It was comparatively easy for China to develop the Pearl River Delta, which was once primarily agricultural, and turn it into one of the world's most powerful industrial regions because it can produce food in other parts of the country. Vietnam, which is much smaller, doesn't have that luxury with the Mekong Delta. So there's a land limitation in Vietnam.

- The supply chains in China are far more robust and often highly integrated. For example, it's common to find factories located in super close proximity to the suppliers of the raw inputs they need. Sometimes the manufacturers are vertically integrated or have overlapping ownership with suppliers.

- Although Vietnam has invested heavily in improving its infrastructure, China is still many years ahead in terms of roads, rail, deep water ports, etc.

- Foreign companies that manufacture in China have also invested in Chinese manufacturing because it helps them open the door to China's domestic consumer market. The Vietnamese domestic consumer market is much much smaller.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:35PM (#28631516)
> - China has a much larger pool of labor. It has literally hundreds of millions of potential migrants who can move from rural areas to urban areas to work in factories. This is multiples of Vietnam's entire population.

Believe me, you don't want to hire the people left there in villages, even if they are young, and moderately educated. But in its majority, the labour that still drips from inland China is of lower quality kind. Anguished, tired, middle-aged men who didn't manage to move to the coastal cities during the heydays.

> - It was comparatively easy for China to develop the Pearl River Delta, which was once primarily agricultural, and turn it into one of the world's most powerful industrial regions because it can produce food in other parts of the country. Vietnam, which is much smaller, doesn't have that luxury with the Mekong Delta. So there's a land limitation in Vietnam.

Vietnam makes quite a lot of food, more than China by acreage by far. China is surprisingly agriculturally unproductive country. Take a look on Bangladesh, it has turned a food exporter, despite the truly microscopic size of arable land.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by LurkingPenguin on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:00PM (#28631909)
> Believe me, you don't want to hire the people left there in villages, even if they are young, and moderately educated. But in its majority, the labour that still drips from inland China is of lower quality kind.

To knock China off, a country needs quantity, not quality. But even then, once again, Vietnam doesn't have an advantage here. Skilled labor is still very much in short supply in Vietnam.

> Vietnam makes quite a lot of food, more than China by acreage by far. China is surprisingly agriculturally unproductive country.

But that's the point. Vietnam is agriculturally rich and farming is part of the fabric of the Vietnamese culture. The country will not give the Mekong Delta to industry in anywhere near the same way China was able to sacrifice large swaths of historically agricultural land to industry. See again the Pearl River Delta.

I'd personally love to see China replaced but post-COVID, spend some time in Vietnam or Bangladesh and it won't take you long to see that these countries are nowhere near close to mounting a serious challenge. Like I said, Vietnam has a very bright future and will gain, but it's not going to supplant China.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @01:35PM (#28632402)
I've been to both countries as well.

Vietnam is tiny, it's entire industries are said to be less than a single district of Dongguan... but

The lion share of China's light industry sits in the Guandong, and Shenzhen once famously had 50%+ of world's electronics output singlehandedly.

Everything else up north was economically inconsequential until GD became too expensive.

Guandong's population at the time was <100M. So it's well doable for both countries. A giant, giant influence here is where the winds of global capital will blow.

As it's said, Samsung is now 1/3 of Vietnam's GDP, and singlehandedly runs the whole supply chain for all what it makes there, and that is without Samsung group giving any special commitment to Vietnam. Imagine what will it be if Samsung decides to up the states, and move it's heavy industry, and Semi there.

If Foxconn, will decide on moving the "Foxconn city" into Vietnam, and other OEMs of the same size too, just every opportunity opens.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:14AM (#28630352)
There are more factors to it than just cost of labour.

Skilled assembly line workforce now comes at CNY10000-CNY15000 per month, more than the labour cost in cheaper US states, not to say that employers in USA pay close to nothing besides the salary itself (social security, pension fund, other welfare payments are minimal)

Yet, nobody runs to open factories in USA. Some Chinese companies tried, and everybody seen how it went.

In short: biggest manufacturing MNCs want nothing, but very skilled, educated, and young workforce coming at near no cost, and they bet everything on an all in investment in the country where have it.

Samsung chose Vietnam. Now it is 1/3 of Vietnam's GDP.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by jhallenworld on Thursday September 23, 2021 @11:14AM (#28630365)
For Vietnam there is the risk of the authoritarian single party rule. It works as long as the decisions are wise, but nothing can be done if they are not. I kind of think this is what's happening in China now.
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by p_j_w on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:24PM (#28631357)
>It works as long as the decisions are wise, but nothing can be done if they are not.

Given how things are going here in the states, I'm not sure this is a problem limited to single party states.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:52AM (#28630024)
Ravik, what do you think of Bangladesh vs. India business-wise?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by rocgf on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:47AM (#28629925)
Maybe India?
Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:50AM (#28629990)
Saying India... Have anybody here ever tried not operating, but just registering a company in India? If so, tell people here how many months it took...

The biggest exhibit of what's wrong with India, is to compare it to Bangladesh.

Despite stating of with pretty much nothing in 1971, 2 decades surviving off humanitarian aid, and effectively 2 more decades of civil war, BD has now higher GDP per capita than India, better projections for coming years, and beating India on many, many more economic stats.

And Bangladesh is by no means an example of good governance, or brilliant leadership.

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by logicchains on Thursday September 23, 2021 @12:42PM (#28631623)
> Saying India... Have anybody here ever tried not operating, but just registering a company in India? If so, tell people here how many months it took...

Is it even harder than registering a company in China?

Re:What Does Evergrande Meltdown Mean for China? by baybal2 on Friday September 24, 2021 @04:30PM (#28647433)
It is