News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by danans on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @12:17PM (#28618193)
> Is it the like/upvote mechanism? Hacker News would constitute harmful social media in that case.

The way I've started to look at it is that all social media has some harmful and some beneficial aspects, but the nexus of identity-based (vs topic-based like HN) social media with upvote/like functionality is the most problematic for people struggling with identity and self worth. Even as someone established enough not to struggle with self-worth, I avoid that type of social media completely.

Topic based social media with clear and enforced guidelines for content seems to have the least bad trade-off between the harmful and the beneficial.

Of course no social media property is exclusively one or the other, but the design and operation of the service strongly influences the direction in which it goes.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by mnsc on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @05:14PM (#28621905)
Hacker news is not social media. I have never recognized a user/username in between two sessions. And I would probably miss the mythical PG if he showed up in a thread. I don't know his handle anyways. Sometimes I'm made aware that a relevant "celebrity" is present in the thread but that's when people act obviously star struck like "oh thank you for that seminal paper back in '15".

So nothing social going on here, just weird/interesting discussions between persons x, y, z, i, j and k.

Edit: I just noticed that some usernames are green. I don't know what that signifies and I do not want to know.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by danans on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @07:44PM (#28623488)
> Hacker news is not social media. I have never recognized a user/username in between two sessions.

OK, let's call it a discussion forum instead. I'd still argue that is a subcategory of social media. The general shape of these things has been around since at least the BBS days.

These terms, however, don't seem to capture the difference I posited between identity-based and topic-based social-discussion-service thingies, and I don't think there exists a standard terminology to make this distinction at this time.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by mnsc on Friday September 24, 2021 @07:44AM (#28641098)
My reasoning is that the socialness here doesn't affect my experience in any way (that I'm aware of). "Liking" stuff by upvoting doesn't mean _I_ get more of "Content X" on my frontpage, it just means everyone gets more of this content. And I can't friend/follow people so my frontpage can't be affected by a secret algorithm that shows me more content of what my clique is currently raging about.

So I both agree with you and disagree with you. Our terminology is lacking for sure. And I agree that this is _more_ of a discussion forum, but not just simply that. But I wouldn't classify a discussion forum as a subcategory of social media. Maybe the other way around.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by buckyfull on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @06:38PM (#28622924)
It isn't? It seems to me like it is. We have groups of people discussing issues in these online forums. Isn't that social media? And although we don't seem to have "clout mechanics" for users, we do have the upvote/downvote mechanics for posts and comment count per post. Admittedly I quickly scan all posts for these numbers to help me decide where to click.

So it seems like what can make social media a positive or a negative in a person's life is pretty complex. What each person brings to their interactions with the media varies a lot and the ways mechanics are used in the different sites and apps vary a lot.

So it seems like a lot social is going on here on this site. The social group here is responsible for all of the content, I think? Right? It wouldn't be the same if it were posts selected by an elite group and we were just allowed to comment on them.

So I think the article's suggestion to "quit social media" is too simplistic and lacks the nuance it would need to be helpful advice.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by Griffinsauce on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:55AM (#28626404)
> And although we don't seem to have "clout mechanics" for users

It is possible to see someone's profile, posts and comments. I wonder how many users do this to form opinions about others.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by mnsc on Friday September 24, 2021 @07:47AM (#28641116)
I clicked on you. Karma 918. I have absolutely no reference of whether this is "good" or "bad" because I never do do this to form opinions about others here. =D The only thing I know is that this comment (28626404) made me think about something and then type something as a reply and that could be good news or bad news, who can say?
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by Griffinsauce on Thursday September 23, 2021 @03:53AM (#28626391)
> nothing social going on here, just [..] discussions

Discussions are social interactions. HNs format just makes them very shallow because they start from zero each time.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by derekzhouzhen on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:41AM (#28629820)
There are different kind of social medias, like there are 50 shades of gray. Any media that have network effects and a positive feedback loop is a social media. I'd say HN is one of the healthier social medias.
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by wowaname on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @05:48PM (#28622341)
>some usernames are green

New user.

>I do not want to know

Too bad :)

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by tessierashpool on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @12:41PM (#28618508)
the upvote mechanism is definitely harmful in most use cases, because it prioritizes groupthink over expertise.

but it's also definitely beneficial in places like Stack Overflow, where there's a logical reason to assume that the most popular answer might have any correlation at all with the best answer.

the best answer will always be at or near the top in a place like Stack Overflow. so the upvote mechanism is useful there. but the most racist answer will always be at or near the top in a forum where racist people just share opinions.

and this malicious example is just chosen for clarity. even in a more innocuous context, if there is no absolute correct answer and nobody is testing the answers for accuracy, upvotes often do more harm than good, and upvote sites are almost by definition groupthink factories, when they don't pertain to verifiable claims that are quickly tested (which is what makes upvotes helpful on a site like Stack Overflow).

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @01:53PM (#28619485)
>but it's also definitely beneficial in places like Stack Overflow, where there's a logical reason to assume that the most popular answer might have any correlation at all with the best answer.

Sure, there's correlation but the correlation always breaks down whenever anyone needs it most.

If you ask an easy question you could have just googled or read the man pages to get a decent answer is what's upvoted. But few people really need help answering those questions.

If you ask a hard question potentially involving nuances and situational constraints or if you ask a very specific question requiring expertise you will get the same naive surface level answers highly up-voted and the one guy who actually knows your question has his answer downvoted to oblivion by the people who know just enough to be dangerous.

If you aren't familiar with the subject matter in question it's even worse because a guy who knows what he's talking about answering your hard question and getting downvoted for it is indistinguishable from a guy who has no idea what he's talking about giving a wrong answer to an easy question.

Of course the end result is that everyone who knows WTF they're talking about contributes minimally if at all.

Stack Overflow is better than most subreddits because you can link a man page or doc but the more a subject requires subjective judgement the more it displays the pattern I described above.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by danans on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @04:16PM (#28621191)
> but the most racist answer will always be at or near the top in a forum where racist people just share opinions

This has the effect, however, of making it clear that the forum itself is mostly racist, rather than masquerading as not being that.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by skinkestek on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @01:27PM (#28619152)
> the upvote mechanism is definitely harmful in most use cases, because it prioritizes groupthink over expertise.

> but it's also definitely beneficial in places like Stack Overflow, where there's a logical reason to assume that the most popular answer might have any correlation at all with the best answer.

> the best answer will always be at or near the top in a place like Stack Overflow. so the upvote mechanism is useful there. but the most racist answer will always be at or near the top in a forum where racist people just share opinions.

The obvious answer to this however is not to remove the very useful upvote button everywhere but to

- stop frequenting racist forums,

- if they are actually racist, tell law enforcement (where applicable)

isn't it?

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by BrightGlow on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @03:26PM (#28620649)
I was lurking here last year during the racial justice protests, and before that during the James Damore controversy. I still saw casually racist/sexist posts get upvoted fairly often. A discriminatory argument can be stated well and seem reasonable on its face, but still be discriminatory. It's the kind that moderators here are too lenient against and won't really want to delete as long as there isn't a pattern of it, because it could just be an well-meaning person suffering an error in judgement. I don't know how our world is supposed to move past that, or if it's even possible. I would have probably been a little less disappointed in the state of humanity if some of those posts had been flagged, because there were a lot of them across the whole internet.
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by genewitch on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @04:42PM (#28621508)
Is being racist against the law? Why would someone tell law enforcement?
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by vadfa on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @05:04PM (#28621802)
Racism can be considered hate speech, which is illegal in places with no right to free speech such as most countries in Europe.

For example: https://www.report-it.org.uk/reporting_internet_hate_crime

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by implements on Thursday September 23, 2021 @10:48AM (#28629945)
Incitement to racial hatred, done publicly, can be held illegal if it crosses certain thresholds. I don’t think this means Europeans don’t have free speech.

Consider both:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_laws_of_the_United_Sta...

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by wowaname on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @05:50PM (#28622366)
I don't know why you're getting downvoted when you're correct here.
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by rovolo on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @02:30PM (#28619932)
How can you distinguish identity-based from topic-based social media? Doesn't your identity influence which topics you're interested in, and don't the topics which interest you form your identity? This forum says in the guidelines to submit "Anything that good hackers would find interesting." That reads to me like an identity-based forum.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by psyc on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @02:47PM (#28620155)
Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc, are primarily networks of personal (or corporate) identities. The centerpiece is the user. HN and Reddit are primarily ranked lists of interesting URLs. I don’t know one user from another, apart from a handful of prolific users, and half the accounts start with “throwaway”. (It wasn’t so in the beginning, but even then there was no reason to go to someone’s user page.)
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by danans on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @04:29PM (#28621354)
I think you are misunderstanding my use of the the phrase "identity-based". What I mean is that the primary entity around which conversation and content revolve on HN is the topic (from URLs or questions), not the individual user's identity.

Topic based forums are a thing. I'm a member of a paid (gasp!) forum for high-performance building methods.

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by atlgator on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @03:22PM (#28620601)
Hacker News IS harmful because there's no established standard for what should receive an upvote or downvote (>500 karma can downvote). This leads to people just upvoting things they agree with and downvoting things they don't. It's all groupthink. Alternatively, all well thought out comments should receive upvotes (despite personal cognitive dissonance) and inflammatory, trolling, or irrelevant comments should be downvoted. That would support diversity of thought and ideas.
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by Avicebron on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @03:32PM (#28620720)
I'm confused, isn't established standard too nebulous a concept to be "needs to be upvoted", there is just too diverse of an opinion on what what is a "well thought out comment" and one person's "inflammatory" comment could be another person's "well thought out comment", the cognitive dissonance is upstream of all the voting patterns and there can be no set standard except organic, binary up/down voting. I think the ideal is that on average the local maxima (upvote groupthink) eventually is balanced by local minima (downvote groupthink)...

but I would like to see how an established standard could be set for what should or shouldn't be upvoted?

Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by atlgator on Wednesday September 22, 2021 @04:55PM (#28621666)
You're right. I was just offering one scenario where it might work, but even then there are people that think they are the sole arbiter of moral thought and speech they disagree with is akin to violence, etc. I didn't want to get into all that. Sufficed to say upvote/downvote is not a great system.
Re:Reasons to Quit Social Media by chrischattin on Thursday September 23, 2021 @02:28AM (#28625764)
The was the original "reddiquette" from back in the day. But as you know, it's pretty hard to align incentives, human nature, and that ideal.