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Re:Goodhart's Law by rpdillon on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:31AM (#28566640)
A closely-related effect I often cite is the McNamara fallacy[0], which is essentially about the tendency to focus on aspects of a system that are easily measurable, often at the expense of aspects that are not. I see it as one of the weaknesses of the data-driven decision-making movement, since many interpret "data" to mean "numbers". I think this fallacy can partly explain why Goodhart's Law holds: it's the non-measurable (or difficult-to-measure) aspects that suffer most when a metric becomes a target, since measurable aspects could be (and often are) integrated into the target metric.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy

Re:Goodhart's Law by burnafter182 on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:23PM (#28567347)
As it's told by Mandelbrot, the January effect was identified. Rather quickly it was exploited to the point where it no longer existed because the market exerted pressures to counteract it in the process of exploiting it.

"Consider three cases. First, suppose a clever chart-reader thinks he has spotted a pattern in the old price records—say, every January, stock prices tend to rise. Can he get rich on that information, by buying in December and selling in January? Answer: No. If the market is big and efficient then others will spot the trend, too, or at least spot his trading on it. Soon, as more traders anticipate the January rally, more people are buying in December—and then, to beat the trend for a December rally, in November. Eventually, the whole phenomenon is spread out over so many months that it ceases to be noticeable. The trend has vanished, killed by its very discovery. In fact, in 1976 some economists spotted just such a pattern of regular January rallies in the stocks of small companies. Many investors close their losing positions towards the end of the year so they can book the loss as a tax deduction—and the market rebounds when they reinvest early in the new tax year. The effect is most pronounced on small stocks, which are more sensitive to small money movements. Alas, before you rush out to trade on this trend, you should know that its discovery seems to have killed it. After all the academic hoopla over it, it no longer shows up as clearly in price charts."

-Benoit Mandelbrot, The Misbehavior of Markets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_effect

Re:Goodhart's Law by Stratoscope on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:35PM (#28571176)
This reminds me so much of a Christmas present hack my sister and I invented when we were kids. We used to open all our presents on Christmas morning.

Then we begged "Can't we open a couple of presents on Christmas Eve?" So we got to open a few that night.

Next year was "Well, how about Christmas Eve Morning? Maybe just one or two?"

And the next year was "The 23rd is practically Christmas Eve, isn't it? It's just a few hours apart. Can't we open all our presents on the evening of the 23rd?" And we did!

We didn't push it past that: we were already so happy that we got our presents a day and a half before all our friends!

Re:Goodhart's Law by miki123211 on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:05PM (#28570304)
As far as I'm aware, this is why markets are considered a second-order chaotic system. In those systems, measurements of how the system performs can actually influence what happens next. This is in contrast to first order systems, i.e. the weather, which are hard to simulate, but the results of the simulations don't affect their accuracy.
Re:Goodhart's Law by kbelder on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:12PM (#28571486)
"First get rich; then, publish".

If that's not a law, it should at least be a rule-of-thumb.

Re:Goodhart's Law by rossdavidh on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:02PM (#28567871)
In the context of manufacturing, W.E.Deming said something similar: "that which gets measured, gets improved". His conclusion from this was a little different than McNamara's, though. Since you will inevitably want to track your progress, make sure you track as many things as possible, because anything which is not tracked will get sacrificed to that which is. Up to a point, it's true.

One issue is that some things, like vulnerability to supply chain disruptions, are intrinsically harder to track because they are based on rare occurrences. Thus, they will tend to get sacrificed in favor of measures which are more frequent, leading to an emphasis on short-term strategies.

Re:Goodhart's Law by CalChris on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:40PM (#28568444)
Actually, Deming said much the opposite:

  It is wrong to suppose that if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it – a costly myth.
p. 26 of The New Economics for Industry, Government, Education

It wasn't Drucker either.

https://medium.com/centre-for-public-impact/what-gets-measur...

This whole mindless must measure, must measure mentality has been criticized since the 50s. Measurement is a tool. There are many tools.

Re:Goodhart's Law by mumblemumble on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:24PM (#28570491)
I would argue that it's worthwhile to measure as much as you can, insofar as it facilitates orderly decisionmaking processes.

The problem is that people tend to think that all measurement is necessarily quantitative. I think that this might be a version of the streetlight effect? Quantitative measurements tend to be much easier to collect and analyze than qualitative measurements. Oftentimes you can let it all run on autopilot, whereas doing good qualitative work always requires concentration, effort, and expertise.

Re:Goodhart's Law by dragonwriter on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:05PM (#28572258)
> I would argue that it's worthwhile to measure as much as you can, insofar as it facilitates orderly decisionmaking processes.

That would be true, if measurement was free. It never is, and it often is quite costly.

Re:Goodhart's Law by dr_dshiv on Sunday September 19, 2021 @07:55AM (#28583623)
What is qualitative measurement? As soon as it is quantitative, it isn't qualitative anymore, is it?
Re:Goodhart's Law by mumblemumble on Sunday September 19, 2021 @06:52PM (#28588686)
Re:Goodhart's Law by rossdavidh on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:09PM (#28569688)
In my experience, if it isn't measured, then it is assumed that the policy (whatever it is) is working. If you don't measure, you can't be surprised by "wow, it didn't work like we thought". Therefore, mistakes don't get recognized or corrected. There are many tools, but measurement is one of the only ones that brings unexpected bad news to the user, and that is invaluable.
Re:Goodhart's Law by mhink on Friday September 17, 2021 @01:40PM (#28568455)
> One issue is that some things, like vulnerability to supply chain disruptions, are intrinsically harder to track because they are based on rare occurrences. Thus, they will tend to get sacrificed in favor of measures which are more frequent, leading to an emphasis on short-term strategies.

I suppose this is part of why "chaos engineering" has gained popularity- introducing artificial disruptions at a known rate makes it easier to quantify the impact of otherwise-unusual events.

Re:Goodhart's Law by rossdavidh on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:30PM (#28571129)
Ooh, good point! Another example is auditing, where you substitute regular, frequent disruptions (being audited is disruptive to normal operations) for infrequent, less predictable, bigger disruptions.
Re:Goodhart's Law by dragonwriter on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:04PM (#28572250)
> from this was a little different than McNamara's, though. Since you will inevitably want to track your progress, make sure you track as many things as possible, because anything which is not tracked will get sacrificed to that which is.

That wasn't Deming’s position, Deming was pretty strong on the idea that there are measurable things that it is not cost effective to measure.

A big contribution of Deming’s here is the importance of understanding uncertainty in measurements relations between them to understand the degree of control.

Re:Goodhart's Law by equality_1138 on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:13PM (#28573313)
Fredrick Taylor was the one who developed so-called management science and obsessive measurement, paving the way for Deming to popularize a more balanced or holistic approach, ie. akin to actual science.
Re:Goodhart's Law by ghaff on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:38AM (#28566736)
It's a genuinely hard problem because the quantifiable output metrics are easy to measure and an individual often does have some level of direct control over them. So we convince ourselves that they're a reasonable proxy for something we care about but aren't sure how to measure and that we have control systems in place, whether management or individual responsibility, that largely prevent e.g. quality being thrown away in pursuit of quantity.

And we're often not entirely wrong if we do pick reasonable proxies and have reasonable control systems in place. Because throwing up our hands and saying metrics are useless is usually not the answer either.

Re:Goodhart's Law by TeMPOraL on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:23PM (#28567362)
A flavor of this problem is what could be called "diffusion of responsibility", for a lack of better term. An individual who defined the measure and then optimizes for it will quickly figure out when their measure stops being a good proxy. But in organizations there usually isn't a single person who both understands what the measures are proxying, and has the power to remove a metric once it is used up, or get people to stop overfitting it.
Re:Goodhart's Law by Jtsummers on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:44PM (#28567640)
Another thing I've observed is when you have two measures that operate at different time scales. Both may even be valid measures, but the one measured (and responded to) more often has a stronger impact, and can negatively impact the less frequently measured metric when there's a conflict between them.

A particular instance for this has been (to keep it simple) quantity (speed) and quality in production environments (factories and the like). Daily throughput measures paired with less frequent quality measures. The desire is to keep throughput high, and quality ends up suffering as a result. By integrating quality measures into the process you make the two measures compete on more equal footing, forcing a balance. At least one factory I worked in (well, adjacent to, I was in the software portion not the assembly line) massively reduced their quality problems by integrating quality checks between each station. This contrasted with the prior years where throughput, being measured and reacted to daily, drove them to make things so fast that they had piles of rework at the end. Integrating the quality measures between stations slowed them down, but their rework numbers turned into a rounding error (over a decade ago so I've forgotten the exact numbers, but they went from having items needing rework nearly every day to maybe one or two a month). As a result their real (deliverable to customers) production increased and their cost per unit dropped.

Re:Goodhart's Law by AceyMan on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:01PM (#28570848)
I see this as the root cause of the recently announced class action suit against LADWP over their implementation of tiered electricity pricing.

The tiers (kwh rates) are in hunks of the a day measured in hours.

But the reporting is only available to the consumer in the form of a monthly bill, so by the time you discover you were eating pixies in the Peak Cost hours the heat wave is over and your bill is already through the roof.

(Any local SoCal residents please feel free to pick my analysis apart, but that was my first take when I heard about the legal action.)

Re:Goodhart's Law by serverholic on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:37PM (#28567563)
The better option is to put someone in charge with a vision. However that is risky.
Re:Goodhart's Law by cryptica on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:50AM (#28566901)
To make matters worse, it's also a vicious cycle. For example, if everyone is focused only on specific kinds of data and ignores observable reality, the trend in the data will become self-fulfilling until a point when the perceived inconsistency between the data and observable reality has grown so large that it becomes impossible to ignore.

To understand what the big problems are today, you just have to think about the kinds of data which people in government (and the public) haven't been thinking about or aiming for. For example: Happiness, honesty, altruism, sanity... These are not measured and not targeted so they got completely crushed.

In the past, large, powerful religious groups would target these characteristics but nowadays, society is more secular so these aspects of our lives have suffered significantly.

Re:Goodhart's Law by serverholic on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:36PM (#28567544)
That's one of the thing Andrew Yang talks about. GDP isn't the only thing that matters, nor is it the best metric.
Re:Goodhart's Law by paulddraper on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:33PM (#28572424)
I recall a presentation by a feature team: "And making the share button bright blue yield a 15% increase in share rate."

Okay, yeah I'm sure it does. Because it looks terrible and clashes with literally everything on the screen.

Re:Goodhart's Law by serverholic on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:04PM (#28567088)
Another problem is that overly focusing on metrics means that people with good instincts are brought down to the same level as those with poor instincts.

As long as metrics are increasing someone can write shit code and design a bloated product.

Re:Goodhart's Law by BuyMyBitcoins on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:26AM (#28573711)
“Instinct” can’t be quantified and it’s such a shame that people with good track records can’t quite justify their choices quantitatively. This happens where I work constantly. The managers who get most of their projects delivered on time - I suspect because they have good intuition about effort levels - are constantly struggling to justify their higher initial estimates because the data driven people try to reduce development down to a formula.
Re:Goodhart's Law by miki123211 on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:26PM (#28570512)
I believe this effect greatly contributes to why government IT systems are so bad.

When you're writing a procurement contract, it's relatively easy to describe what the requested system must do, but almost impossible to enforce a great UI design, as great UI design isn't objectively measurable.

As a contractor, you're optimizing for minimum money spent, so if good design is not required, good design gets sacrificed first.

One solution to this specific problem would be to conduct user surveys on how pleasant the system is to use, requiring a specific score before the contract is deemed completed.

This trend manifests more generally in bigger organizations. Smaller orgs let people judge things subjectively, so all possible aspects are taken into account, making those things relatively good; this is why startups succeed. In a bigger org, there are often objective judgement measures to prevent the influence of personal biases, politics or even bribes. However, those measures poorly reflect how good the thing in question actually is. This is why a big corp might produce worse software, even when competing against a small and underfunded startup.

As an example, Apple exempted the first iPhone crew from most internal company procedures, creating a quasi-startup inside Apple. Steve Jobs always had the final say, and his opinions were based on what he thought personally, not on how many points in a requirements specification were satisfied. I believe this was one of the reasons for the iPhone's success.

Re:Goodhart's Law by cratermoon on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:02PM (#28571403)
> government IT systems

This is not limited to governments. Although it's a common naive bias to assert that governments are worse and less efficient than private industry, what is really happening is that government budgets and projects are open to the public, done in the open. For every failed Healthcare.gov, there are dozens of private industry failures that don't make the news because the operations are not subject to the public disclosure rules.

Re:Goodhart's Law by snidane on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:08PM (#28573284)
I've been looking for the name of this for years. It's everywhere. People focusing only on things they can measure instead of what is important.
Re:Goodhart's Law by cratermoon on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:58PM (#28571367)