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Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bjourne on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:40AM (#28562800)
> I can only imagine this story was spun by employee who saw the founders selling and getting bunch of money and now think they should have reaped some of the benefits.

Perhaps they should have. After all, without the employees' help Mailchimp wouldn't have been worth 12 billion today.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by nextlevelwizard on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:21AM (#28563032)
Founders of a company carry the risk. If you want to reap the benefits then you need to start a company. That is the risk and reward.

It is sad when people see others succeed and get angry.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by nimih on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:47AM (#28563239)
All employees at a startup carry substantial risk. If you're working as a customer service rep at a startup which folds, you in all likelihood don't have the connections or financial stability that the founders and software engineers and data scientists and scrum masters have to gracefully transition to another job. If you're planning on having a kid, losing your job 3 weeks before you expected to be able to take paid parental leave is going to really throw a wrench in the works. &c &c
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by rocqua on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:44AM (#28563702)
I don't like the argument I am about to make when used to attack minimum wage, but I think it applies here.

When you accepted the job, you knew the terms. Those included not getting equity, and those included carrying some risk with known reward.

I don't see how the owners selling retroactively makes the risk-reward balance different. Unless you consider it a risk/downside that someone else gets a windfall and you don't get to share. That seems silly to me tho. How rich someone else is does not affect how much money I need to live, with a few exceptions (inflation, friends, power dynamics in pre-existing relationships).

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by ryandrake on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:42AM (#28566780)
> How rich someone else is does not affect how much money I need to live, with a few exceptions (inflation, friends, power dynamics in pre-existing relationships).

Many people cannot afford to even own a home in the Bay Area because everyone else around is so rich. Relative wealth is important because "other rich people" drive up prices of everything, from housing, to groceries, to health care.

If my salary doesn't change, but the people around me get a 10% raise, my buying power decreases.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by rocqua on Tuesday September 21, 2021 @03:27AM (#28602799)
That holds if everyone else gets richer. It does not hold if 2 founders get richer. You barely compete with them for the same items, so it shouldn't affect your buying power at all that your founders got a windfall.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by sokoloff on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:25AM (#28564094)
That CSR’s work is worth a certain amount. The discussion is whether that amount best serves the CSR if paid all in cash or divided into a mix of cash and equity. In Mailchimp’s case, they were clear that it was all cash and no equity and I suspect that was the preference of the CSRs as well.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bobthechef on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:39AM (#28564221)
Not responding to the article or the good or bad of it (frankly it bores me), but this is a strange view of “success”. There’s this strange malaise where people see something like this as their aim in life: to sell to some other guy for the big bucks as if this buyout was “the success” and as if this inducted then into Valhalla. It’s the mysticism of money.

Apart from that, if people were serious about not selling, they’d make employees meaningful shareholders. Salary entails zero loyalty and zero stake in the company on the part of the employee. In the latter case, why would you believe that they wouldn’t sell? That’s what people do.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by stagger87 on Friday September 17, 2021 @09:35AM (#28565304)
Genuine question, what's the risk? Usually owners aren't liable for corporation debt, which I would imagine reduces financial risk, are there other types of risk?
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by andrewingram on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:56AM (#28563800)
From what I recall, the service was spun out of another company though, it didn't become its own thing before it was profitable. There was some origin risk in the original business, but MailChimp itself was arguably a low risk endeavour on the part of its founders.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by maxmamis on Friday September 17, 2021 @09:50AM (#28565454)
and what risk is that? if the company goes under, they need to get a job like everyone else. the only “risk” is that they no longer get to be the big boss. cry me a river.

meanwhile they get to reap (in this case) 100% of the rewards from everyone else’s hard work. if that doesn’t make you angry, perhaps you should reevaluate whose interests your ideology serves.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by WastingMyTime89 on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:26AM (#28563070)
Then again, it seems Mailchimp was always clearly communicating to their emplyees that they didn't give equity and offered great compensation so no one was actually fooled.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bjourne on Friday September 17, 2021 @06:54AM (#28563787)
Regardless, Mailchimp's engineers still sold their labour for way below its value, whether they were fooled or coerced.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by WastingMyTime89 on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:38AM (#28564212)
> for way below its value

I fail to see how. If you are compensated at the market value of your work, that seems fair and Mailchimp gave generous compensation.

You could argue that the gap between wages and capital gain has become too big, a point on which we will be in agreement but to be honest with you, I think the surprising part is that someone would want to pay 12 billions for a company with $700 million of revenue. Still I have found the market to be surprising for a long time so maybe it's time I reassess my expectations.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by Aeolun on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:40AM (#28564752)
> I think the surprising part is that someone would want to pay 12 billions for a company with $700 million of revenue

Since the founders didn’t really want to sell, they probably had to up their offer into ridiculous range.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by elif on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:59AM (#28564938)
MC paid me way above value. My friends moved to SF and still rent and live paycheck to paycheck.

MC paid off my house in 4 years, and I retired after another 4.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by dastbe on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:54PM (#28572194)
Is this because of how different col is between SF and Atlanta? Because I'm looking at https://www.levels.fyi/company/Mailchimp/salaries/Software-E... and the compensation doesn't seem outrageous.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by nextlevelwizard on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:17AM (#28564002)
In what way? If they knew they didn't have equity and still took low paying job then that is 100% on them.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bjourne on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:11AM (#28564512)
Why would any rational person sell their labour for way below its value if they weren't either coerced or fooled?
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by ampersandy on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:57AM (#28564918)
They wouldn't — and Mailchimp employees didn't. The market value of your labour is what you can get a company to pay you.

The hypothetical market value of employees in a world where Mailchimp did offer equity and employees stuck it out to reap that upside doesn't exist, so arguing the point makes no sense.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bjourne on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:54AM (#28566161)
The value of one's labour is the value it generates - not what anyone is willing to pay for it. The value of the cumulative labour of Mailchimp's engineers is $12 billion which vastly exceeds the amount it was sold for.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by WastingMyTime89 on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:43AM (#28566786)
> The value of the cumulative labour of Mailchimp's engineers is $12 billion

No, that's the value of MailChimp as a company. That includes the product, the branding, the management and the customer base.

> The value of one's labour is the value it generates - not what anyone is willing to pay for it.

The market value of anything is exactly the value that anyone is willing to pay for it and that's the only value that actually matters in this case. No one knows the exact value that anyone specifically contributes on a large project. How much of MailChimp value is due to its engineers and how much is due to its sales team? The only thing sure is how much the company agreed to pay its emgineers and that didn't include equity.

If you want to own parts of the company you work for, go work for a company giving equities. If you work for a company which doesn't, you are not entitied to a part of the company value when it's sold. That's literally the meaning of being an employee.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bjourne on Friday September 17, 2021 @04:57PM (#28570812)
> No, that's the value of MailChimp as a company. That includes the product, the branding, the management and the customer base.

How did all these valuables come into existence? Through the employees labour. Thus the value of this labour must be equal to the value of these assets.

> The market value of anything is exactly the value that anyone is willing to pay for it

I never used the term "market value". Sorry if that is what you thought I meant, despite that I didn't use the term. And no, market value is not the only or the best way to measure value.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by ampersandy on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:47AM (#28566855)
> The value of the cumulative labour of Mailchimp's engineers is $12 billion which vastly exceeds the amount it was sold for.

Yes, that's how employment works. Companies do not pay you exactly the same $$ you generate, that's just common sense? Why would they employ you if you cost just as much profit as you generate?

The question here is whether Mailchimp _exploited_ its employees by not offering equity. Unless an employee was lied to and told they might later receive equity, they all joined under the assumption that they were making a mutually beneficial agreement, and that the compensation offered by Mailchimp was worthwhile (as opposed to going and starting their own company or working for another startup that offered equity).

Every Mailchimp employee was welcome to start their own company if they wanted to capture 100% of the profits they generated.

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by bjourne on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:03PM (#28570858)
> The question here is whether Mailchimp _exploited_ its employees by not offering equity.

No. The question is whether Mailchimp's employees would have worked for Mailchimp had they had a completely free choice and good knowledge of the value of their labour (e.g. valuation of the company).

Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by CryptoBanker on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:41AM (#28564761)
Not everyone acts or is able to act rationally all the time
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by RHSman2 on Saturday September 18, 2021 @12:04PM (#28577231)
That is hindsight value.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by OJFord on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:29AM (#28563093)
If they hadn't sold, it'd still have a market value of (at least) $12B, and the employees still wouldn't have a claim to any of its assets or earnings.
Re:Mailchimp insiders react to employees getting no equity f... by eru on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:47AM (#28563240)
That's what salary is for.