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Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by klntsky on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:46AM (#28552494)
However, when searching for "haskell type inference algorithm" I get completely useless results.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by burkaman on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:13AM (#28552843)
That query is too long apparently. But if you shorten to "haskell type inference", I think it delivers on its promise:

> If you are looking for fact, this is almost certainly the wrong tool. If you are looking for serendipity, you're on the right track. When was the last time you just stumbled onto something interesting, by the way?

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by marginalia_nu on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:55AM (#28553397)
The search engine doesn't do any type of re-ordering or synonym stuff, it only tires to construct different N-grams from the search query.

So if you for example compare "SDL tutorial" with "SDL tutorials". On google you'd get the same stuff, this search engine, for better or worse doesn't.

This is a design decision, for now anyway, mostly because I'm incredibly annoyed when algorithms are second-guessing me. On the other hand, it does mean you sometimes have to try different searches to get relevant results.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by leephillips on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:01PM (#28553469)
I like this design decision. It pays you back for choosing your search terms carefully.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by mananaysiempre on Friday September 17, 2021 @07:02AM (#28563859)
I’m not against a stemmer, actually, just against the aggressive concordances (?) that Google now employs, like when it shows me X in Banach spaces (the classical, textbook case) when I’m specifically searching for X in Fréchet spaces (the generalization I want to find but am not sure exists); of course Banach spaces and Fréchet spaces are almost exclusively encountered in the same context, but it doesn’t mean that one is a popular typo for the other! (The relative rarity of both of these in the corpus probably doesn’t help. The farcical case is BRST, or Becchi-Rouet-Stora-Tyutin, in physics, as it is literally a single key away from “best” and thus almost impossible to search for.)

On the other hand, Google’s unawareness of (extensive and ubiquitous) Russian noun morphology is essentially what allowed Yandex to exist: both 2011 Yandex and 2021 Google are much more helpful for Russian than 2011 Google. I suspect (but have not checked) that the engine under discussion is utterly unusable for it. English (along with other Germanic and Romance languages to a lesser extent) is quite unusual in being meaningfully searchable without any understanding of morphology, globally speaking.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by medstrom on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:03AM (#28564441)
I thought you could fix that by enclosing "BRST" in quotes, but apparently not. DuckDuckGo (which uses Google) returns a couple of results that do contain "BRST" in a medical context, but most results don't contain this string at all. What's going on?
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by mananaysiempre on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:36AM (#28564720)
I’m not certain what DDG actually uses (wasn’t it Bing?), but in my experience from the last couple of months it ignores quotes substantially more eagerly than Google does. For this particular term, a little bit of domain knowledge helps: even without quotes, brst becchi, brst formalism, brst quantization or perhaps bv brst will get you reasonable results. (I could swear Google corrected brst quantization to best quantization a year ago, but apparently not anymore.) Searching for stuff in the context of BRST is still somewhat unpleasant, though.

I... don’t think anything particularly surprising is happening here, except for quotes being apparently ignored? I’ve had it explained to me that a rare word is essentially indistinguishable from a popular misspelling by NLP techniques as they currently exist, except by feeding the machine a massive dictionary (and perhaps not even then). BRST is a thing that you essentially can’t even define satisfactorily without at the very least four years of university-level physics (going by the conventional broad approach—the most direct possible road can of course be shorter if not necessarily more illuminating). “Best” is a very popular word both generally and in searches, and the R key is next to E on a Latin keyboard. If you are a perfect probabilistic reasoner with only these facts for context (and especially if you ignore case), I can very well believe that your best possible course of action is to assume a typo.

How to permit overriding that decision (and indeed how to recognize you’ve actually made one worth worrying about without massive human input—e.g. Russian adjectives can have more than 20 distinct forms, can be made up on the spot by following productive word-formation processes, and you don’t want to learn all of the world’s languages!) is simply a very difficult problem for what is probably a marginal benefit in the grand scheme of things.

I just dislike hitting these margins so much.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by leephillips on Friday September 17, 2021 @09:33AM (#28565278)
It would not be a difficult problem if they allowed the " " operator to work as they claim it does, or revive the + operator.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by mananaysiempre on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:14AM (#28565737)
In English, maybe; in Russian, I frequently find myself reaching for the nonexistent “morphology but not synonyms” operator (as the same noun phrase can take a different form depending on whether it is the subject or the object of a verb, or even on which verb it is the object of); even German should have the same problem AFAIU, if a bit milder. I don’t dare think about how speakers of agglunative languages (Finnish, Turkish, Malayalam) suffer.

(DDG docs do say it supports +... and even +"...", but I can’t seem to get them to do what I want.)

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by leephillips on Friday September 17, 2021 @11:05AM (#28566302)
Ah, OK. I don’t know anything about Russian. This is a hard problem. I think the solution is something like what you suggest: more operators allowing different transformations. Even in English, I would like a "you may pluralize but nothing else" operator.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by mananaysiempre on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:38PM (#28572465)
Well it’s not that alien, it (along with the other Eastern Slavic languages, Ukrainian and Belarusian) is mostly a run-of-the-mill European language (unlike Finnish, Estonian or Hungarian) except it didn’t lose the Indo-European noun case system like most but instead developed even more cases. That is, where English or French would differentiate the roles of different arguments of a verb by prepositions or implicitly by position, Russian (like German and Latin) has a special axis of noun forms called “case” which it uses for that (and also prepositions, which now require a certain case as well—a noun form can’t not have a case like it can’t not have a number).

There are six of them (nominal [subject], genitive [belonging, part, absence, “of”], dative [indirect object, recipient, “to”], accusative [direct object], instrumental [device, means, “by”], prepositional [what the hell even is this]), so you have (cases) × (numbers) = 6 × 2 = 12 noun forms, and adjectives agree in number and gender with their noun, but (unlike Romance languages) plurals don’t have gender, so you have (cases) × (numbers and genders) = 6 × (3 + 1) = 24 adjective forms.

None of this would be particularly problematic, except these forms work like French or Spanish verbs: they are synthetic (case, number and gender are all a single fused ending, not orthogonal ones) and highly convoluted with a lot of irregularities. And nouns and adjectives are usually more important for a web search than verbs.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by yesenadam on Sunday September 19, 2021 @10:21AM (#28584533)
> BRST, or Becchi-Rouet-Stora-Tyutin is literally a single key away from “best” and thus almost impossible to search for.

Hmm I seem to be getting only relevant results, no "best", not sure what you mean. Are you not doing verbatim search?

https://www.google.com/search?q=brst&tbs=li:1

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by dahauns on Friday September 17, 2021 @10:10AM (#28565681)
English is more the outlier in regard to Germanic languages, try German or Finnish, with their wonderful compounds :)

https://e.humanities.uva.nl/publications/2004/kamp_lang04.pd...

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by mananaysiempre on Friday September 17, 2021 @08:58PM (#28572597)
Well yeah, English is kind of weird, but Finnish isn’t a Germanic language at all? It’s not even Indo-European, so even Hindi is ostensibly closer to English than Finnish. I understand Standard German (along with Icelandic) is itself a bit atypical in that it hasn’t lost its cases when most other Germanic languages did.

Re compounds, I expected they would be more or less easy to deal with by relatively dumb splitting, similar to greedy solutions to the “no spaces” problem of Chinese and Japanese, and your link seems to bear that out. But yeah, cheers to more language-specific stuff in your indexing. /s

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by dahauns on Monday September 20, 2021 @09:39AM (#28593661)
Gaaah, brain fart - you're right, of course, dunno why I included it.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by ford_o on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:27PM (#28557082)
Maybe list the synonyms under the query, so its easier to try different formulations.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by akavel on Friday September 17, 2021 @03:53AM (#28562487)
Oh this sounds like it could be a really cool idea! This way it could also be subtly teaching users that the engine doesn't do automatic synonyms translation so it's worth experimenting; also kinda like giving the synonyms feature while still keeping user in full control.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by OneLeggedCat on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:31PM (#28555350)
Don't change it. It's good this way.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Razengan on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:25PM (#28554551)
It could simply become an option.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by klntsky on Thursday September 16, 2021 @10:49AM (#28552538)
Since it does not use synonyms, it looks like it is unable to answer "how's that thing called"-queries.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by LanceH on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:14AM (#28552860)
It would be nice if we could pipe search engines.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by BenoitP on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:09PM (#28553576)
Definitely; We could create a meta search engine that queries them all, in desktop application format.

Let's name it after a famous old scientist, and maybe add the year to prove it's modern: Galileo 2021.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by PaulHoule on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:11PM (#28555103)
Meta search engines leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth because they've always failed. Here is why

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theore...

You can't combine a few different ranked lists and expect to get results better than any of the original ranked lists.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by robrenaud on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:32PM (#28555360)
> You can't combine a few different ranked lists and expect to get results better than any of the original ranked lists.

I am skeptical of this application of the theorem. Here is my proposal:

Take the top 10 Google and Bing results. If the top result from Bing is in the top 10 from Google, display Google results. If the top result from Bing is not in the top 10 from Google, place it at the 10th position. You'd have an algorithm that ties with Google, say 98% of the time, beats it say, 1.2% of the time, and loses .8% of the time.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by vikingerik on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:58PM (#28555771)
Right. Arrow's theorem just says it's impossible to do it in all cases. It's still quite possible to get an improvement in a large proportion of cases, as you're proposing.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by PaulHoule on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:11PM (#28556851)
I've had jobs tuning up the relevance of search engines with methods like

https://ccc.inaoep.mx/~villasen/bib/AN%20OVERVIEW%20OF%20EVA...

and the first conclusion is "something that you think will improve relevance probably won't"; the TREC conference went for about five years before making the first real discovery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okapi_BM25

It's true that Arrow's Theorem doesn't strictly apply, but thinking about it makes it clear that the aggregation problem is ill-defined and tricky. (e.g. note also that a ranking function for full text search might have a range of 0-1 but is not a meaningful number, like a probability estimate that a document is relevant, but it just means that a result with a higher score is likely to be more relevant than one with a lower score.)

Another way to think about it is that for any given feature architecture (say "bag of words") there is an (unknown) ideal ranking function.

You might think that a real ranking function is the ideal ranking function plus an error and that averaging several ranking functions would keep the contribution of the ideal ranking function and the errors would average out, but actually the errors are correlated.

In the case of BM25 for instance, it turns out you have to carefully tune between the biases of "long documents get more hits because they have more words in them" and "short documents rank higher because the document vectors are spiky like the query the vectors". Until BM25 there wasn't a function that could be tuned up properly and just averaging several bad functions doesn't solve the real problem.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by random314 on Thursday September 16, 2021 @06:07PM (#28558355)
Arrows theorem simply doesn't apply here. We don't need our personalized search results to satisfy the majority.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by PaulHoule on Thursday September 16, 2021 @06:50PM (#28558803)
But in both cases you face the problem of aggregating preferences of many into one. In one case you are combining personal preferences in the other case aggregating ‘preferences’ expressed by search engines.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by random314 on Friday September 17, 2021 @12:07PM (#28567135)
But search engines aren't voting to maximize the chances that their preferred candidate shows up on top. The mixed ranker has no requirement to satisfy Arrows integrity constraints. It has to satisfy the end user, which is quite possible in theory.

Conditions the mixed ranker doesn't have to satisfy "ranking while also meeting a specified set of criteria: unrestricted domain, non-dictatorship, Pareto efficiency, and independence of irrelevant alternatives"

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by PaulHoule on Friday September 17, 2021 @02:29PM (#28569156)
Sure, but the problem that conventional IR ranking functions are not meaningful other than by ordering leads you to the dismal world of political economy where you can't aggregate people's utility functions. (Thus you can't say anything about inequality, only about Pareto efficiency)

Hypothetically you could treat these functions as meaningful but when you try you find that they aren't very meaningful.

For instance IBM Watson aggregated multiple search sources by converting all the relevance scores to "the probability that this result is relevant".

A conventional search engine will do horribly in that respect, you can fit a logit curve to make a probability estimator and you might get p=0.7 at the most and very rarely get that, in fact, you rarely get p>0.5.

If you are combining search results from search engines that use similar approaches you know those p's are not independent so you can't take a large numbers of p=0.7's and turn that into a higher p.

If you are using search engines that use radically different matching strategies (say they return only p=0.99 results with low recall) the Watson approach works, but you need a big team to develop a long tail of matching strategies.

If you had a good p-estimator for search you could do all sorts of things that normal search engines do poorly, such as "get an email when a p>0.5 document is added to the collection."

For now alerting features are either absent or useless and most people have no idea why.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by gnramires on Thursday September 16, 2021 @03:56PM (#28556648)
That's an invalid application of this theorem. (It doesn't necessarily hold)

Suppose there's an unambiguous ranked preference by all people among a set (webpages, ranking). Suppose one search engine ranks correctly the top 5 results and incorrectly the next 5 results, while another ranks incorrectly the top 5 and correctly the next 5.

What can happen is that some there may be no universally preferred search engine (likely). In practice, as another commenter noted, you can also have most users prefer more a certain combination of results (that's not difficult to imagine, for example by combining top independent results from different engines for example).

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by overkalix on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:05PM (#28555016)
... is this Galileo 2021 a reference that I am not understanding?
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by BenoitP on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:40PM (#28555486)
Yup, but so far no one got it.

There was such an app in the early 2000's, before Google went mainstream, and Altavista-like engines were not good: Copernic 2000.

I guess I'm officially old now.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by genewitch on Thursday September 16, 2021 @07:14PM (#28559004)
For years I wanted to try Copernic Summarizer. It seemed like it actually worked. Then software that did summaries disappeared, maybe? And about 5 years ago bots on Reddit were doing summaries of news stories (and then links in comments).

This is a pattern I see over and over again, some research group or academics show that something can be done (summaries that make sense and are true summaries, evolutionary algorithm FPGA programming, real time gaze prediction, etc) and there's a few published code repos and a bit of news, then 'poof' - no where to be seen for 15 years or more.

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by tomerv on Thursday September 16, 2021 @04:17PM (#28556948)
FWIW, I got the reference. Maybe I'm old too?
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by squeaky-clean on Thursday September 16, 2021 @11:38PM (#28560932)
I was always a dogpile user :p
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by LightG on Friday September 17, 2021 @05:46AM (#28563223)
Hotbot!
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by collinmanderson on Friday September 17, 2021 @02:14PM (#28568952)
Brave browser currently has "Google fallback" which sometimes mixes in Google search results with Brave's own search engine.

https://search.brave.com/help/google-fallback

Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by gmueckl on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:35PM (#28553912)
Not an app, but probably comes quite close in all other respects: https://metager.org
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by Torwald on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:32PM (#28553879)
I need that with a simpler interface, so I call it after a famous dedective: Sherlock.
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by artificial on Thursday September 16, 2021 @01:58PM (#28554930)
a magic pop sound is faintly audible as a new side project is appended to several lists Excellent, thank you!
Re:A search engine that favors text-heavy sites and punishes... by mkr-hn on Thursday September 16, 2021 @02:16PM (#28555166)
Likely trademark collision with this: https://www.galileo.usg.edu/