News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by d1a2n on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:48AM (#28536408)
Comment section here proving once again that high IQ nerds are, when it comes to the stuff that actually matters, overtly authoritarian. You might be all for giving children hormone blockers and championing the right to vote without ID, but it turns out the liberalism was just a LARP all along. I am fortunate to be in a position where my livelihood is not being threatened, and I will never get an unnecessary medical procedure to satisfy either contemptible neurotics, pharma shareholders, or the government. Freedom is the freedom to say "fuck you", and I don't need to justify why, though with the facts as they currently stand, it's about the easiest thing in the world. Seethe and cope, because at the end of the day you are a slave, and I will never be.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by musicale on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:58AM (#28536478)
> at the end of the day you are a slave, and I will never be

I prefer the term "open source project maintainer."

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by locallost on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:05AM (#28536509)
A lot of people will never understand you, so don't waste your time. You should instead try with a red light, say I'm not a slave, and drive through. The light won't understand you either, but maybe you finally will.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by raxxorrax on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:52AM (#28537163)
I completely agree, although I don't really see too many "high IQ" comments here.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by louissm_it on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:00AM (#28536836)
That's fine, just stay away from our towns and businesses where you can endanger people who care about each other. Your livelihood may not be threatened, mine isn't either - but you're probably threatening someone else's.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by peteradio on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @07:40AM (#28537819)
Youre in a thread talking about people with natural immunity who do not wish to get vaccinated. How is someone with natural immunity endangering you?
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by mattparcens on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:42PM (#28542728)
It's unfortunate that it's necessary to provide this reminder within almost every message thread.

It's basically a straw man fallacy, and the fact that it's probably unintentional on the part of the committers tells you something about the single-mindedness of those doing the committing.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by cgrealy on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:27PM (#28543956)
How do you know anyone has natural immunity? There are plenty of anti-vaxx conspiracy nutjobs that would happily lie about it to avoid getting improved 5G.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by PoignardAzur on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:06AM (#28536871)
> Seethe and cope, because at the end of the day you are a slave, and I will never be.

See, I'm not that petty, and I mostly content myself with living in a country where hospitalization rates are at a record low thanks to vaccine mandates. I don't need to seethe or think about it that much.

But if I were that petty, I think my seething and coping would be abated by the knowledge a lot of you people are dying these days, unless they can afford top-of-the-line fetus-based therapy.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by raxxorrax on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:03AM (#28537241)
My country has no mandates and ICU usage from Covid is under 10%. There is a policy in place that will increase measures when ICU occupancy from COVID rises to 10% - 20%.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by d1a2n on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:21AM (#28536973)
> a lot of you people are dying these days

What's the death rate again?

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by cgrealy on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:29PM (#28543973)
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by hug on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:37AM (#28537082)
In the US, about a thousand a day averaged over the pandemic, I believe.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by tshaddox on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:13AM (#28536559)
Or some of us might be aware of the paradox of tolerance and correctly conclude that unlimited tolerance of intolerance is not the only alternative to authoritarianism.
[dead]
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ghostwriter on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:12AM (#28536554)
> Peevish attitude -- as if getting a vaccine is a deep personal choice.

Bodily integrity is a deep personal thing. “My body, my choice” isn’t it?

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by tshaddox on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:14AM (#28536563)
No more so than driving drunk.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ghostwriter on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:22AM (#28536617)
Driving drunk doesn’t imply violating driver’s own bodily integrity against their choice. A drunk driver risks other people’s lives and it’s a punishable crime.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by tshaddox on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:07PM (#28541647)
> Driving drunk doesn’t imply violating driver’s own bodily integrity against their choice.

I'm not sure what you mean. Police would use force to stop a drunk driver from driving drunk.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ghostwriter on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:30PM (#28542594)
The prerequisites of the applied force in the case of drunk driving would be driver’s acts of volition to choose to get drunk and to choose to drive afterwards.

What are the prerequisites of the applied force in the case of staying unvaccinated? What are the acts of volition that justify the force?

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by tshaddox on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:43PM (#28544118)
The force would be used to prevent unvaccinated people from participating in certain activities (like attending public indoor gatherings). It’s very directly analogous to drunk driving.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by franga2000 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:49AM (#28536760)
An unvaccinated person attending a public gathering risks other people's lives as well.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by raxxorrax on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:55AM (#28537184)
For some few exceptions. I am vaccinated and don't feel threatened by unvaccinated people at all. Yes, there are people with compromised immune systems, but I think it is on them to reduce the risk of exposure without having a mandate on vaccination.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by franga2000 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:18AM (#28537354)
It's not just about immunocompromised people. The fewer people are vaccinated the quicker we get rid of the virus. If don't do it quickly, we're slowly "marinading" the virus in the vaccine, increasing chances for a vaccine-resistant mutation. It's kind of like why you're not allowed to stop a course of antibiotics half-way through.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ghostwriter on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:41PM (#28542702)
> The fewer people are vaccinated the quicker we get rid of the virus.

There is no evidence that the virus can be get ridden of.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by franga2000 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:47PM (#28542791)
Well, we have gotten rid of other viruses in the past and it also makes sense in theory given what we know about viruses, so the burden of proof is on those claiming we can't.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by batch12 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @05:59AM (#28537218)
If a vaccinated person can transmit covid, doesn't the same issue exist?
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by lostmsu on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:03AM (#28540026)
Just like with drunk driving accidents, it is not binary.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by batch12 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @08:40PM (#28546412)
And not the same thing at all. It's dishonest to say:

> An unvaccinated person attending a public gathering risks other people's lives as well.

Because it implies there is no risk for the vaccinated to spread disease.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by lostmsu on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @09:55PM (#28547022)
Are you saying it is dishonest to blame drunk driving because it implies there's no risk for the sober to hit people on the roads?
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by batch12 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @11:16PM (#28547549)
You seem to be arguing for the sake of it. I feel that my statement was pretty clear. If I am communicating poorly, I apologize, but there isn't much more I can add.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by lostmsu on Thursday September 16, 2021 @12:15AM (#28547933)
I am arguing for the sake of reason. Your statement was pretty clear, but based on a false assumption.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ghostwriter on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @02:43PM (#28542735)
It’s also impossible to establish that one particular person infected another particular person. Drunk driving accidents are precise on actors.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by d1a2n on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:19AM (#28536598)
You'll make this analogy, but if I remind you that banning driving would save lives, you'll tell me "car accidents aren't contagious!"

Your mind has been destroyed, and unfortunately there is no vaccine (remember, the definition can change).

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by franga2000 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:46AM (#28536747)
What are you on about? Cars are actually a pretty good analogy.

Banning cars is equivalent to a full lockdown - useful temporarily if the issue is getting out of control, but despite working well, takes so much away from us that it's definitely not worth it long-term.

Banning drunk, unlicensed, etc. people from driving treats the issue more immediately without taking away ver much at all. Yes, drunkards won't get to drive, even if they're willing to risk it, so that's a negative effect for them, but society as a whole will gladly sacrifice that to protect everyone else (including them, even if they don't want it).

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by tshaddox on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:06PM (#28541625)
I am certainly confused. Do you think drunk driving on shared roads should be allowed or prohibited? I'm also not interesting in discussing whether anyone's "mind has been destroyed," but I am interesting in discussing whether specific ideas are good ideas or bad ideas.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by revax on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:27AM (#28536650)
>I remind you that banning driving would save lives

This is not remotely comparable, banning driving would (for most people) require changing entirely your lifestyle.

Getting a shot require a couple hours.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by tshaddox on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:06PM (#28541633)
Banning driving would almost certainly cause more people to die for other reasons than those who currently die in automobile accidents.
Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by franga2000 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @04:40AM (#28536713)
Can people please stop using that chant? It's not relevant. It was never used for what you're using it for. It was an overly general chant used to push a very specific policy goal.

Bodily integrity isn't a blanket rule. You have it only insofar as it doesn't harm others. Abortion, HRT, plastic surgery... fall into that category. Willingly spreading a deadly disease despite an easy and safe-ish preventative option does not.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by raxxorrax on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:00AM (#28537225)
I think all your examples are wrong. I am for abortion, but the bodily integrity argument is just plainly bad because it relies on axioms that the child isn't a fully developed human.

I support abortion rights but hate this argument in particular, because bodily integrity of the child would be of interest as well.

HRT and plastic surgery are irrelevant here since they are voluntary choices.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by franga2000 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @06:14AM (#28537324)
The post I was replying to was using the "my body my choice" chant which as far as I know is almost exclusively used by the abortion right movement.

They were trying to apply it to vaccination, which isn't comparable to abortion for reasons I explained and therefore the chant had no place there.

I do agree that the framing of abortion as a bodily integrity issue is missing a lot of other aspects, which is why we got dumb things like the heartbeat laws. But it is the argument I hear most activists make.

HRT and plastic surgery are relevant because they're choices you should be allowed to make about your body because they don't harm others. Not getting vaxxed doesn't satify that criterion. It's not a perfect comparison since one is an action and the other is the lack of action, but it's still an issue of the government controlling what you do with your body, which I argue is acceptable if and only if it's something that harms others.

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by ghostwriter on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @01:57PM (#28542247)
> Bodily integrity isn't a blanket rule. You have it only insofar as it doesn't harm others.

To move forward, you have to prove that one particular unvaccinated person harmed another particular person in the case of covid. Good luck with establishing this causation!

Re:Why doesn’t natural immunity count in the US? by mschuster91 on Wednesday September 15, 2021 @03:53AM (#28536446)
> I will never get an unnecessary medical procedure to satisfy either contemptible neurotics, pharma shareholders, or the government.

One man's freedom ends where another man's begins. By not getting vaccinated against coronavirus, you are endangering yourself (which, while fine from a personal freedom point of view, still leaves society in form of either the taxpayer or your health insurance on the hook for the treatment cost should you die from it) and you are endangering others who are legitimately unable to get vaccinated (children < 12 years of age, immunosuppressed people, non-responders) with a deadly disease.

And the more people get infected, the more overwhelmed hospitals get with COVID cases (especially given that the delta mutant is both more infections and more likely to cause severe, ICU-requiring distress)... which means the collective freedom of you and other people to not get vaccinated is likely to directly impact the freedom of others who are in need of an ICU bed. And then there is the immense mental and physical load that the unvaccinated severe cases of COVID put on the individual healthcare workers who are obligated by their professional ethics to treat you, no matter what.

So much loss of life, of wealth, of happiness only to satisfy the radical libertarianism of the few. You know, if it were like with seatbelts where the only one you're endangering by not wearing it is yourself then I'd say go for it, see you in wherever we end up after our death - but by not vaccinating, you are part of a direct threat against everyone else.