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Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by patentatt on Sunday September 12, 2021 @08:42AM (#28500623)
But the comment you’re responding to said it’s unknowable, not that it shouldn’t be known. It’s not an argument of merit but of practicality. I’d also add that it’s irrelevant. Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change? Are we going to start WWIII over it? I’d hope not. Maybe ‘the powers that be’ came to the same conclusion early on and tried to stem the public outcry, and maybe that’s ok. If you say that the value of finding out it was a lab leak would lead to stricter controls or dissuade similar research, I’d say that that has already happened. So I agree with OP in that it’s a distraction at this point and we should put all effort and mental energy into dealing with the pandemic rather than finding someone to blame.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by corty on Sunday September 12, 2021 @08:57AM (#28500730)
I would argue that there is a huge difference regarding the improvements in safety measures, depending on whether there is the suspicion or the proof of a lab leak.

With just the suspicion of a lab leak, there will always be half-measures because of researchers arguing that you are needlessly tying their hands. And there will always be people who believe them, either because they trust those researchers or because they don't want to spend any more money on safety measures.

With proof of a lab leak, nobody would listen to researchers' complaints about those strict safety measures anymore. And having seen the huge cost to society, the evaluation of cost and benefits of that research and its safety will be seen in a totally different light.

Also, having someone to blame would imho rally sceptics and deniers behind a common narrative. There would be a common external threat and a common enemy to fight, meaning that the means of that fight like travel restrictions and vaccinations would be more readily accepted.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by patentatt on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:52AM (#28501149)
I see you’re first point, that’s probably accurate. But I think on the second point the common enemy to fight would quickly become the entire country of China (in the eyes of many in the US at least), and there would be massive public pressure for war, or antagonism of some kind (economic, political, social) that could escalate to war. And that has the potential to be much more devastating than the pandemic. So I think the first point you make about the merits of increased scrutiny have to be balanced against the dangers of potential war.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by corty on Sunday September 12, 2021 @10:28AM (#28501452)
We are already at 4 Million fatalities from Corona, with a probably significant unknown number of deaths in third-world countries without proper diagnostics and healthcare. Vaccinations are still going too slow and will take another 5 years to even possibly cover all humans. Within that timeframe, it is quite possible to approach WW2 levels of fatalities (around 80 mio.). Secondary damage due to hospitals being overwhelmed, imploding economies and hunger will come on top and are still not easy to estimate.

It would be appaling and immoral to let something of this magnitude go unanswered. If someone is responsible, they need to feel the consequences. Because the consequences of not reacting to something like this, and it getting out later, are far more serious and devastating: That would in one stroke wipe out all legitimacy of involved governments, leading to revolutions all over the west (and quite possibly the rest of the world).

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by native_samples on Sunday September 12, 2021 @12:16PM (#28502451)
4 million with COVID, not because of. China would certainly point out that all COVID fatality data is confounded, e.g. the average age of death being above the average life expectancy in some areas. Given how a COVID death is defined, an entirely inert virus engineered to be spreadable but otherwise completely harmless would still be considered to have racked up a lot of deaths.

They would also argue that they aren't responsible for western policy responses, even if those responses were inspired by theirs. Things like hunger are a side effect of lockdowns and supply chain disruptions, not directly the virus.

The true number of deaths genuinely caused by COVID that wouldn't otherwise have happened is unknown and probably always will be. It's probably in the same general area as the 4 million figure, it wouldn't be 50% or anything, but really for a virus that so heavily affects the old and co-morbid you'd need to be calculating in terms of life years lost rather than concrete "deaths". It's the latter style of counting that has led to this mass confusion in the first place.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by jsnell on Sunday September 12, 2021 @12:34PM (#28502602)
The graphs for excess mortality track the deaths attributed to Covid quite well in most of the world. There's just no chance that it's some kind of an measurement artifact.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-...

The main exception are totalitarian states like Russia or China, where the numbers were either entirely suppressed or fabricated.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by native_samples on Monday September 13, 2021 @03:44AM (#28508834)
What is "it" in that sentence? COVID deaths exceed excess deaths in quite a few countries, which doesn't make sense, especially given that lockdown measures create deaths through restricted healthcare access - look at graphs of hospital admissions right at the start or the now massive backlogs.

The Economist tables show this. Britain reports 10,000 more COVID deaths than excess deaths, and the over-count is surely much higher than that given that the healthcare system now has huge backlogs with people dying on waiting lists for non-COVID related diseases. Denmark also reports far more COVID deaths than excess deaths. Some of those are created by policy, and the proportion will only increase over time given the vaccines + generally screwed up health system.

Then there's the question of how excess is calculated. It's excess vs a model. What matters here is not really what's true but what China can argue is true. Modelling is discredited in the west now, in the unlikely event they cared to respond at all, they would certainly argue that any calculations of damages were based on motivated reasoning and bad modelling (and then present their own bad modelling in response).

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by jsnell on Monday September 13, 2021 @12:29PM (#28513464)
"It" refers to what you wrote, i.e. "Given how a COVID death is defined, an entirely inert virus engineered to be spreadable but otherwise completely harmless would still be considered to have racked up a lot of deaths."

That theory is obviously not compatible with the excess mortality graphs moving in lockstep with the Covid death graphs. If the virus has no correlation with deaths and it is all a mis-attribution, why would the pattern of deaths match so well with the pattern of excess mortality?

Excess mortality being a model rather than ground truth is irrelevant too. It still doesn't explain the correlation.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by native_samples on Tuesday September 14, 2021 @04:29AM (#28521855)
Ah. I didn't mean that SARS-CoV-2 is literally an inert virus. Clearly it's not at all, it's a virus that has caused quite a bit of death, and indeed, the mortality graphs are the best evidence of that.

The claim about an inert virus was an extreme example to make the point clearer. Imagine such a virus did exist (which it doesn't). Then by the methodology used to compute COVID deaths, there would still be a large number of deaths attributed to the virus even as excess deaths didn't move at all, even though that should be a statistical impossibility.

The question is therefore not "is SARS-CoV-2 entirely inert", obviously that would be ridiculous. The question is "to what extent are the reported numbers confounded by age and co-morbidity effects". The Economist is arguing that excess death figures show the confounding doesn't exist or must be so small it hardly matters. I'm arguing that by their own data (which seems to be continuously updated even long after the article is published?) there are countries where either the numbers are over-counted in this way, or the mortality models are seriously wrong, because COVID deaths > excess deaths.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by roenxi on Sunday September 12, 2021 @08:56AM (#28500715)
The takeaway in any event is it could have come from a lab. That should be enough to trigger some action around biosecurity.

There is no reason to think this won't happen again in our lifetimes. We have this amazing global logistic network that can apparently ferry a virus all over the world in about 3 months. Lab safety has to be beyond question.

I imagine we'll see some monumental changes in Chinese lab safety after this, independent of whether or not they believe it came from a lab.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by corty on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:06AM (#28500802)
> I imagine we'll see some monumental changes in Chinese lab safety after this, independent of whether or not they believe it came from a lab.

No, we won't. That would be the party admitting it was wrong before, which can never happen outside of a coup.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by roenxi on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:12AM (#28500840)
The party are many things, many of them bad. But they do not like global pandemics. And I expect many of them are quite elderly (eg, Xi Jingping is 68) and feel personally threatened by exotic new diseases.

I reckon they'll act.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by tzs on Sunday September 12, 2021 @11:56AM (#28502272)
I'd expect that a lot of countries would not want to look too deeply into blaming someone because once you've blamed someone the topic of damages come up.

Damages are usually based on some notion of reasonable behavior on the part of the damaged party. If the damaged party behaves unreasonably and that increases the damages they suffer the negligent party usually does not have to pay the extra damages.

I think a lot of countries look at this, realize that at best they can make the case that China is responsible for 5-15% of their damages, realize that their political opponents will spin that as the current government being responsible for 85-95% of their loss, and decide it is better to just move on.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by notacoward on Sunday September 12, 2021 @10:50AM (#28501659)
> Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change?

The most likely outcome would not be greater transparency or control over how such research is conducted. More likely it will move into the shadows, in military labs whose very existence is shrouded in secrecy. That's not just speculation, either. It already happened with biowarfare in the USSR and USA and probably elsewhere during most of my lifetime. Do people not remember these issues being discussed in the context of destroying the last smallpox samples? Or the anthrax scare(s)? Or the Reston "Hot Zone" incident(s)?

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by ctrlp on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:24AM (#28500911)
There are non-kinetic forms of warfare that may very well be appropriate if indeed this was a lab leak and cover-up. If it is proven tomorrow to be the case that the virus emerged from WIV, do you think it's appropriate to just let it go? Even if it was pure negligence the cover-up itself and the hiding of the epidemic before it became pandemic could be considered an act of war by countries affected.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by patentatt on Sunday September 12, 2021 @10:00AM (#28501204)
I agree it could be considered an act of war, which is why cooler heads on all sides may have decided to downplay, distract, and deny that that’s what happened. War between China and the rest of the world (which we all know means the US as far as war goes) would be devastating for humanity.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by ctrlp on Sunday September 12, 2021 @10:12AM (#28501325)
There are non-kinetic forms of warfare [0]. At least, the PLA believes there are. These are tactics to win without physically fighting. Many believe China is already engaged in non-kinetic war with the U.S. (economic and information).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_warfares

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by tzs on Sunday September 12, 2021 @10:45AM (#28501602)
Wuhan is a large city with a big foreign presence. The US, the UK, South Korea, and France have consulates generals or consulates there. That places severe limits on just how effectively an epidemic in Wuhan can be covered up.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by ctrlp on Monday September 13, 2021 @10:24AM (#28511888)
Not if the major players on both sides are invested in the cover-up. Are you arguing the CCP is not very effective at cover-ups? That would be reassuring if true.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by kongin on Sunday September 12, 2021 @08:46AM (#28500654)
> I’d also add that it’s irrelevant. Let’s hypothesize that we find out tomorrow irrefutable evidence for this theory. What does it change?

Demanding reparations from China for their WMD program going out of control would be a good start.

Then criminal cases against everyone involved in the West who approved something so boneheadedly evil and pointless.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by nso on Sunday September 12, 2021 @08:51AM (#28500678)
Research on viruses happens a lot of places, it doesn't mean it's being weaponized.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by michaelmrose on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:16AM (#28500859)
There is a fundamental difference between developing a biological weapon and a leak of a pathogen being analyzed as part of research program. There is absolutely as far as I know no reason to believe that covid is a biological weapon. Such a virus in fact would be an awful weapon. It acts very slowly relative to any evolving conflict with someone who has ample access to weapons that act of minutes and hours vs months and years. It is near impossible to broadly vaccinate your own population without telegraphing your intent to act and probably leaking your vaccine and may mutate beyond your ability to control it and damage your own population.

It is like being in an armed standoff in a building full of soldiers from each side and "attacking" the enemy by setting fire to the building you are all in.

A virus is a weapon of terror not war. It is unfit for purpose.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by ctrlp on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:33AM (#28500999)
There is no reason to suppose that, if Sars-Cov2 originated at WIV that it was NOT part of a bioweapons program simply considering the tight integration of the PLA with all forms of research deemed of national interest in China. It's certainly not evidence AGAINST there being a bioweapons angle to Sars-Cov2 (if it emerged from WIV) that the PLA is involved (as it has been documented it is)[0][1].

[0] https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/feb/16/chinese-maj...

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02523-x

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by patentatt on Sunday September 12, 2021 @10:17AM (#28501369)
I don’t want to argue it is a weapon, but just playing devils advocate here … the pandemic has been far more destabilizing to democracies in the west than autocracies. Unilateral, heavy-handed action is effective at combating pandemics. And it’s not inconceivable that some bigwigs in Beijing could see some population culling, especially in the more rural regions, as not a terrible thing. And it’s good cover to argue that it wasn’t an intentional weapon if it affects your own population too. I don’t believe it was an intentional release of a weapon, but if it were it wouldn’t be as self-sabotaging as it may first seem is all.
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by shlant on Sunday September 12, 2021 @08:55AM (#28500710)
do you think that live virus research including gain-of-function serves no purpose whatsoever other than for WMD's? It's just "evil and pointless"?
Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by GuB-42 on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:07AM (#28500806)
That's a good way to start WWIII.

WWII started like that. To make things simple, countries who lost WWI were destabilized and reparations were a big reason. It promoted the raise of nationalist, revengeful leaders like Hitler and Mussolini. You know the rest.

They carefully avoided making the same mistake after WWII.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by titovodka on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:19AM (#28500882)
Avoiding confrontation with evil will only allow evil to prevail.

The only reason the US hasn’t gotten after china is because of the economic/supply chain ties and the implication of the US gov itself.

Re:Is this proof of lab leak lies? by ctrlp on Sunday September 12, 2021 @09:25AM (#28500928)
This is an oversimplification to the point of being just untrue.