News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by ncmncm on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @08:32PM (#28464775)
ITER is a victim of a process seen frequently in large public-works projects, but particularly those where no one understands what anything really should cost, and where there is no practical deadline for completion. It is worst when there is no expected utility when it is done.

We see it lately in the numerous military procurements (particularly the F-35 program), in NASA's SLS rocket, in California's bullet train to nowhere, and urban tunnels such as New York's 2nd Avenue subway extension. It is why nuke plants are invariably so expensive and late.

In a word, corruption.

Lately, this corruption has been arranged to be wholly legal, so there is no possibility of prosecution. The majority of the money spent is funneled into myriad private pockets without moving the project toward completion. Nobody involved, at the monetary level, has any desire for it ever to be completed, because that is when the gravy train stops.

Fusion projects represent the worst case of this phenomenon. Nobody knows what it should cost, and nobody in control of spending wants it over with, ever.

The chance that anything of any practical use could come out at the end was openly foreclosed before it ever started: it was never promised to produce any electrical power, and no turbines, or space for any, appear in any site plan.

Any sort of practically useful Tokamak plant would need to be overwhelmingly bigger and more expensive than ITER, and could never come anywhere near producing commercially competitive power, so the project is a known dead end, to be milked until it is finally cancelled in shame.

What is tragic is that each euro diverted to this boondoggle brings climate disaster terrifyingly closer.

Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by choeger on Thursday September 09, 2021 @02:52AM (#28467038)
That's some hating BS right there. ITER might fail to produce economically viable fusion energy, but it certainly won't fail to produce a massive amount of scientific and engineering innovation.

The sole fact that such a scientific undertaking can be done internationally, over decades, is a great thing considering the global problems we face.

Yes, ITER doesn't follow the USA economic ideology of "much", "cheap", and "now", but the world doesn't consist only of the USA and not everything works well with that ideology.

ITER is not a PV or battery factory. It is more like the ISS.

Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by ncmncm on Thursday September 09, 2021 @03:44AM (#28467303)
ISS is an apt comparison. Its apparent purpose while the Shuttle was flying was to be a place the Shuttle could get to. What it is for now is anybody's guess. In just a few years it will be a celestial light show, somewhere.

I have no doubt that plasma fluid physicists will learn a great deal from trying to get ITER lit up. Just handed the money, they could have learned a thousand times more, and maybe even achieved practical D/H-3 fusion propulsion for spacecraft. But that will not happen at ITER.

Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by choeger on Thursday September 09, 2021 @04:25AM (#28467500)
"Just handed the money", my ass. Did you ever work in science? How to you even think that money should be distributed in scientific institutions? Everyone gets a share based on ... what? Their degree? Number of publications? Consensus by committee?

And for comparison, look what the ISS has brought us commercially: We have a fully commercial manned spaceflight planned for next week. That is a massive achievement without even considering all the scientific work on the station.

Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by ncmncm on Thursday September 09, 2021 @04:47AM (#28467640)
Handing 99% of the money to contractors for what will in short order be thousands of tons of radioactive slag contributes minimally to actual research. The developers of the overwhelmingly more practical FRC reactor are left to get by on scraps. Elsewhere in science, money is, in fact, being "granted" directly to scientists. This has gone on since long before you were born.

All of the "scientific work on" ISS is done with crew literally pushing an "on" button on each bit of automated equipment running it. Experiments are forbidden to involve more interaction, and also forbidden to operate without that "on" button, so the crew has something, anything to do.

Commercial manned spaceflight could better have been worked without ISS. ISS's role was nothing more than a place to take them. Plus, a huge money sink on its own. It will soon fall out of the sky, and with any luck not hurt anybody where it crashes down.

Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by Chris2048 on Thursday September 09, 2021 @09:53AM (#28469698)
> All of the "scientific work on" ISS is done with crew literally pushing an "on" button

Why is this relevant?

Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by naasking on Thursday September 09, 2021 @03:26PM (#28473611)
I assume he means that the crew was superfluous because the "on" button could be pushed remotely or automated at a fraction of the cost of sending people to space.
Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by stjohnswarts on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @09:24PM (#28465147)
This sounds like a whole lot of speculation to me. Can you cite actual sources and documents that prove it?
Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by ncmncm on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @10:57PM (#28465710)
You write like someone unfamiliar with the history of the other projects cited. Copious materials are readily found online. Read up on them. Try to identify any reason to imagine ITER is different. I will wait.
Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by coryrc on Thursday September 09, 2021 @01:10AM (#28466469)
Hey, that's not fair, there were many people "working" on the 2nd avenue tunnel who were never there. There's still illegal corruption!
Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by derac on Wednesday September 08, 2021 @11:05PM (#28465762)
Actually you can scale magnetic field stength or size to produce more power. SPARC (and later ARC) aims for the former with modern superconductor tech and is on track to potentially produce energy at Q~=11 by 2025.
Re:MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion... by ncmncm on Thursday September 09, 2021 @04:33AM (#28467550)
I don't doubt it will produce plenty of of fast neutrons. Producing useful energy without destroying the most expensive parts of your reactor in the process is a whole other project. Doing it anywhere nearly as cheaply as overwhelmingly simpler systems whose costs are still in free fall is another, probably impossible project.