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Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:10PM (#2842812)
If the patents were used to block android out of market, then maybe it is harming the consumers. But I see no problem with demanding license fees and maintaining certain feature exclusivity, even that means Android become not so free or less user-friendly. Google does not represent all people and Android has no inherent right to be free.
Re:When patents attack Android by Krylez on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:22PM (#2842883)
You make it sound so reasonable. There is a patent gold rush right now. The USPTO is approving thousands of patents that cover the same obvious ideas. Parties that have lost in the marketplace or haven't even participated are effectively taxing the winners by extorting patent fees. Google could pay the fees to the losers and acquire enough patents the reach an equilibrium via mutually assured destruction with their competition, but the market is effectively closed to anyone without the extremely deep pockets.
Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:52PM (#2843017)
First I hate patent trolls, but the ill effects are financially not that devastating. Trolls do not kill the geese. No geese, no egg.

And then there are the tech giants, they do not notice you until you get real big yourself.

So yeah, the situation sure is depressing, but then again at the end of the tunnel is money and fame, it is only reasonable the path shall be difficult.

Re:When patents attack Android by azakai on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:24PM (#2842897)
I have many problems with demands of license fees for patents that are trivial. All of the patents mentioned so far in this battle have been of that sort.

This isn't a valid use of the patent system - it's an abuse of that system. This is very clear to both people that suppose software patents and that oppose them.

If someone can show a valid, nontrivial patent that Android is being attacked with, I might change my mind.

Lawsuits over trivial patents scare me because I might be the next target. If I found another startup some day, and develop all my own technology, I can still be sued over trivial patents. If it can happen to Google, what's to stop it from happening to any of us, if we become successful enough to be targets for this sort of thing?

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:45PM (#2842979)
Me think Sun's java patents are very non-trivial.

But legally speaking, none of us have the authority to determine what qualifies as trivial. Google certainly has the fund to battle it out and demands re-examination of every patents involved. Just recently Apple got USPTO to declare several S3 patents invalid.

Just do it.

Re:When patents attack Android by azakai on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:51PM (#2843012)
> But legally speaking, none of us have the authority to determine what qualifies as trivial.

Technically we can be sued and the court will decide what is 'trivial'. But that is completely messed up. We, the software engineers, know what is trivial or not in our field - software engineering.

If lawyers decide what is trivial and what isn't in software, then every software engineer founding a startup needs a lawyer to go over all the code he or she writes. That's a horrible burden on innovation!

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @05:05PM (#2843095)
What's obvious and trivial to professionals may not be trivial at all in common sense. What's obvious and trivial after the fact may not be trivial at all before someone come up with it in the first place.

The question remains to what extend do we protect IP so the system yields net benefit to the society, not the opposite?

I have no answer, but I'm Chinese, I've witnessed a complete disregard for IP in practice facilitates intellectual cesspool and general lack of innovation. I hesitate to join the chant for total software patents abolishment.

Re:When patents attack Android by azakai on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @05:19PM (#2843154)
> What's obvious and trivial to professionals may not be trivial at all in common sense.

And should not the professionals in this case - software engineers - be the right people to make that determination?

> What's obvious and trivial after the fact may not be trivial at all before someone come up with it in the first place.

Yes. But in practice, no one reads patent filings. So the act of filing patents doesn't spread information that makes an idea seem trivial later on. Of course the act of making a successful product might do that.

> The question remains to what extend do we protect IP so the system yields net benefit to the society, not the opposite?

That's a tough question. But it is clear that suing over trivial patents is detrimental to innovation. Software patents of actual substance, on the other hand, are a debatable issue.

None of the patents being sued over in the mobile space so far appear to have any substance.

Note that I don't count the Java patents here - Oracle isn't a mobile company, and the patents aren't mobile in particular. Oracle's lawsuit against Google isn't of the same category as the other anti-Android lawsuits. The other ones come from competitors in the mobile space.

Regarding the Java patents themselves, I haven't read any, so I can't say I have an opinion.

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @05:43PM (#2843281)
I think software engineers should absolutely be involved, but more like "expert witnesses". The judgement is better left in the hands of law people with common sense.

And really the merits of various patents these companies holds are not the focus of my argument, I understand you feel quite differently.

Re:When patents attack Android by azakai on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @05:52PM (#2843308)
> I think software engineers should absolutely be involved, but more like "expert witnesses". The judgement is better left in the hands of law people with common sense.

I can't disagree more.

Should common sense be how we decide what medical option to pursue? Or whether a mathematical proof is valid? Or even whether a legal argument is allowed - in the US judges determine that in many case, not juries?

What possible reason is there for common sense to determine whether a software patent is trivial or not? The only question should be whether it actually is trivial or not. The people who know that are software engineers.

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @06:13PM (#2843402)
Because there is no truth in "trivial" and "obvious", there is only value, as in "guilty" and "good".
Re:When patents attack Android by azakai on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @08:37PM (#2843933)
There is also no objective truth in medicine. But we still let doctors decide what procedures to do, not random people with 'common sense'.
Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Thursday August 04, 2011 @12:30AM (#2844563)
There is no true "healthy", but there is a truth about the state of your bodily function, we just do not know it whole most of times, even doctors. Physically alive and not alive is very objective.

We let doctors do whatever they suggest a lot, we also have the right to refuse medical help if deemed mentally capable. Random people with common sense decide for theirselves.

Re:When patents attack Android by notatoad on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:18PM (#2842869)
you're making the mistake of assuming that these patents cover real features or inventions. they don't. they are just pages of incomprehensible text that lawyers use to extort money. should google really be paying licensing fees for "a system and method for performing an action on a structure in computer-generated data"?

and in most of microsoft's existing licensing agreements with android vendors, that haven't even disclosed what patents are being licensed. there's just some vague threat that they have a claim, and you're expected to pay up if you don't want to get sued.

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:35PM (#2842941)
Then challenge the patents, change the law.

I'm not happy with the current system either. But I do not see IP legal actions as all evil, the purpose can be purely to set road blocks for competitors. But as long as it is within the bound of law. After all Android's price barrier is also pretty insurmountable.

I'm very skeptical that HTC does not know what Microsoft's been licensing. Others do not, sure.

Re:When patents attack Android by notatoad on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @07:21PM (#2843659)
i agree with you that not all IP action is evil. but the patent system is horribly broken, they grant patents for retarded things and it is nearly impossible to get a stupid patent overturned. it isn't nearly as simple as "challenge the patents, change the law". microsoft and others who abuse the patent system in this way are going to keep doing everything in their power to ensure it stays broken.

and yes, i'm sure HTC knows what they are licensing. but they've signed NDAs as part of their agreement, and microsoft refuses to publicly disclose what patents they think they hold. if google could learn what patents microsoft is charging license fees for, they could potentially write android in a way that didn't infringe on those patents. microsoft doesn't want this. they want android to infringe, so they can continue to collect money off it. this is a malicious abuse of the patent system. there is no other way to describe it.

Re:When patents attack Android by nitrogen on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:18PM (#2842868)
...Android has no inherent right to be free.

The core idea of Free Software is the notion that one's own creations have every right to be free. If I create something independently, it is my right to give it away for free. Why should some other company I've never heard of and/or never done business with get to charge license fees for something I created myself, without their help?

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:40PM (#2842961)
See the problem is quite a few companies do not think Android is 100% Google's own creation. Oracle is asking a price for the Java part. Apple does not want its own UI to be a part. And FSM knows what parts Microsoft feels entitled to.
Re:When patents attack Android by danenania on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:56PM (#2843045)
Right, and those companies are full of shit, because Apple's UI is just an amalgamation of shiny icons and features that have been used countless times in countless places--in mobile, the web, standard oses, everywhere. Do they do a great job of packaging all these features together for a good user experience? Certainly. But 'good design' shouldn't be patentable.

Same with Java. Name one feature of Java that hasn't been done 100 times in one form or another in some other language

This is why software patents are absurd. We are all standing on the shoulders of giants.

Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @05:09PM (#2843116)
And we all pay for the right to stand there, for no longer than 20 years.

In the tech industry, 20 years are couple of lifetimes long. I'm in favor of shorten the period too.

Re:When patents attack Android by nitrogen on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @05:02PM (#2843089)
Regarding Apple's UI claims, IIUC that's mostly against Samsung's modifications of Android. Further, how many ways can you arrange finger-sized square icons on a portrait-mode screen? If two phones have two screens of similar size, and one puts 48x48 (or whatever) pixel icons on them, they will form similar grids.

Oracle is another matter entirely, and arguing that case requires discussing whether an unoriginal programming language and associated virtual machine should be patentable. Oracle gets no sympathy from me because of the way they've treated the various communities that built up around Sun's products, but beyond that, I think a rational case can be made that Google's independent implementation of a register-based VM should not be seen as infringing patents on Java's stack-based VM, and/or that Java's patents cover things that are obvious or non-novel.

Re:When patents attack Android by yock on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:16PM (#2842853)
It isn't the demand for fees, per se, it's the intended result of those fees. Those fees are to be charged at such a rate, a rate practically guaranteed by the monopoly promised by the patent, as to make Android infeasible economically. That behavior is at the very heart of anti-competitive law.
Re:When patents attack Android by AllenKids on Wednesday August 03, 2011 @04:25PM (#2842899)
I don't get it. The fees are always in 5-20 ranges from what can be gathered. Collectively Microsoft, Apple and Oracle would get $40 tops per phone. Why is it economically infeasible? Adding $40 to COGS at about $200 sure is not pretty, but impossible? Also Google is making money off of the platform, let it subsides Android manufacturors if necessary. After all by giving out decent mobile OS for free, Google also makes Microsoft's business model "infeasible economically". Live by the sword, at least expect a few cuts.