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Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by vkou on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @01:24PM (#28382835)
Firstly, I am supportive of heavily subsidized/free post-secondary education. However, there is a substantial difference between K-12 and post-secondary.

K-12 is considered a baseline for society. Everyone is expected to have it. It absolutely makes sense for the government to pay for it.

Post-secondary is a different beast. It is not a baseline for society (Even if it is a baseline for white collar-work). Not everyone is expected to have it. People who end up in, on average, better-paying jobs are the primary beneficiaries of cheap/free post-secondary education.

There are two ways out of this situation.

1. You can make post-secondary the baseline. Everyone could be expected to have it. This... Is probably a good idea for building better citizens (and, by proxy, a better society), but it is not economically cost-optimal.

2. You can keep post-secondary as a special privilege for the a select few, citing that society, as a whole, benefits from educating its most capable members. In that case, you'd need hard admissions testing/filtering/etc, it should be easy to drop out if you can't perform once you've been admitted, and universities should primarily focus on education, rather than being a four-year, three-star resort for middle-class young people.

Neither of these two options would look anything like "College, as it is currently practiced in the United States, but paid for by the government."

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by mullingitover on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @01:50PM (#28383258)
> People who end up in, on average, better-paying jobs are the primary beneficiaries of cheap/free post-secondary education.

Those people also end up paying far more taxes. There's a perfectly selfish reason for government to make college free - it more than pays for itself over the lifetime of the taxpayer.

It doesn't make sense for government to pay for ridiculous university overhead (e.g. expensive new buildings, armies of worthless administrators, wildly overpaid athletic coaches, etc) but it's a no-brainer deal for government to pay fully for the real costs college degree. The key is to avoid paying for the non-education expenses.

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by betwixthewires on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @03:27PM (#28384502)
I'm guessing you deduced that those people end up paying more taxes because they end up making more money? If that were the case you wouldn't have the student debt crisis right now; if the payoff was worth it people would be able to afford to pay their loans.

If we can make a college degree only cost what it actually costs and not pay for all the cruft why does the government have to start paying it? You've solved the problem at that point.

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by mullingitover on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @07:34PM (#28386890)
> If we can make a college degree only cost what it actually costs and not pay for all the cruft why does the government have to start paying it? You've solved the problem at that point.

Only a single payer system has the leverage to force the universities to decouple their cruft from their core educational expenses. And you're right! College tuition would probably be near-negligible if the cruft was removed, but my take at that point is why not just make it free, then?

The irony is we essentially already have this single payer system. Every college and university is dependent on federal financing for tuition. The federal government simply needs to use the power it already possesses. It's a lot like the federal government's refusal to negotiate drug prices, a wasted opportunity.

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by betwixthewires on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @09:55PM (#28387874)
> Only a single payer system has the leverage to force the universities to decouple their cruft from their core educational expenses

That's a pretty steadfast assertion. It's untrue, and we know that because higher education used to be affordable without a single payer system.

> The irony is we essentially already have this single payer system.

I'm not sure this is ironic so much as symptomatic. Blank checks lead to waste. Students on the hook for blank checks lead to what we have now.

> why not just make it free, then?

I can think of a couple of reasons. Nothing is free in this world, for one, and beyond that, I don't want to live in a world where I have to spend another 4 years of my life in school just to get a job because it's free and therefore expected of everyone. Those are pretty big reasons why not.

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by mullingitover on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @10:27PM (#28388060)
> It's untrue, and we know that because higher education used to be affordable without a single payer system.

We don't know that it would've been affordable without public financing, but I would wager we'd be in the same boat now but with college entirely out of reach for most, instead of merely expensive.

> Nothing is free in this world, for one

Except college in at least six countries[1]

> I don't want to live in a world where I have to spend another 4 years of my life in school just to get a job because it's free and therefore expected of everyone

You don't have to do this. The world still needs field hands and other unskilled labor, and there are still skilled trades that pay quite well.

[1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/08061...

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by KingMachiavelli on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @01:52PM (#28383297)
Agreed. Everyone is advocating for option #1 because it doesn't tell anyone that they shouldn't go to college. Option #2 is what we need but it's basically impossible to do directly.

The middle ground is the federal government starts admitting that it is footing the bill for higher education (it already is paying via loans). If the government's only option for recouping the money is via future tax revenue than there should be pressure to keep the cost per student low and expected future earnings high. Hopefully this would result in colleges offering cheap online classes, credit via exams, etc.

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by jraph on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @02:22PM (#28383703)
> 1. You can make post-secondary the baseline. Everyone could be expected to have it. This... Is probably a good idea for building better citizens (and, by proxy, a better society), but it is not economically cost-optimal.

Not everybody needs / is fit for long studies so I don't think it should become the baseline. I still think it should be free to avoid preventing people who are but could not otherwise afford it from attending it.

Re:65k fake students applied for financial aid in wide commu... by swiley on Wednesday September 01, 2021 @01:46PM (#28383200)
College as is practiced in the United states is a front to move money from the people paying for tuition into the pockets of administrators and little more.

That needs to stop