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Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by selfhoster11 on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @09:38AM (#28301526)
> closed mouths don't get fed

IMO, it's the manager's responsibility to advocate on behalf of the employee, especially if they want to retain them.

There's also the matter that a raise doesn't need a promotion. Don't promote people upwards unless they are willing and already working at this level. Give them a simple raise instead.

Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by jasonshaev on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @01:23PM (#28304233)
> There's also the matter that a raise doesn't need a promotion.

This is a critical point. I've been a manager at companies where the primary, and sometimes only way, to get someone a raise is to promote them because of strict salary bands defined by level. This creates a perverse incentive to promote too early.

Salary bands are usually in place to -- ostensibly -- make sure salaries are fair. Fair salaries are a good thing. That being said, there HAS to be a mechanism to reward top performers with additional cash that doesn't require promotion otherwise it can feel like "teaching to the test."

Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by setr on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @03:23PM (#28305765)
Usually I see this in the form of bonuses, especially ones that will basically always trigger unless you piss someone off (e.g. based on boss’s performance review, where you both know it’s just going be approved unless you really fuck up). Though this still maintains the risk/burden on you; e.g. boss changes; but it keeps HR happy, lawsuits away, and employees with a proper paybump
Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by dagw on Saturday August 28, 2021 @12:11PM (#28339152)
Usually I see this in the form of bonuses, especially ones that will basically always trigger

Every place I worked bonuses are decided according to a strict formula based on the performance of an entire departments and even the company as a whole. There is no way to reward an individual or even a project group with a bonus unless the whole larger office also hit their targets.

Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by jacobr1 on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @03:22PM (#28305745)
They other factor is matching the pay bands to the market correctly. If the HR team outsources this to national averages rather than assessing peer companies, especially in software, the bands are going to be too low. Which means if want to retain anyone (not just your high performers, but your average employees) you are forced to inflate to just match market rates.
Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by johnnyanmac on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @05:19PM (#28307179)
>Don't promote people upwards unless they are willing and already working at this level. Give them a simple raise instead.

I don't disagree, but I don't think there's anything simple about the process at all.

1. this obviously works against the company's interests, if they assume the employee is satisfied. short term business sense says they want to get away with paying as little as possible for labor, whereas employees want to be paid as much as possible. It's an eternal tug of war. And to be honest, one the tech sector has relative advantage over compared to other industries.

2. Even if we get over this short term block, figuring out how to give "merit based" raises can get very tricky, very fast. Especially if you leave the onus to not the developer, but to the manager's perception of the developer to determine.

This not only has bias on how much they/the company values a project (e.g. would working on a "simple" adtech feature be worth more than the labor overhauling a failing product to fail less? The ad product makes the company more money after all). But on their bias as a person. Would Manager give Bob a bigger raise because he goes to Karaoke on Thursday with the company, over John who has to get back to his family after work? Worse yet, would Manager implictly give Janet not a different raise than Bob due to subconcious sexism and not actually doing more work (be it preferential towards or against Janet)?

It's a whole mess, which is why companies try to objectify the whole thing. At least there, there is no room bias outside of who can pitch themselves better (if we assume equal work done).

3. Even if we arrange all of the above, raises aren't typically something a direct manager has easy access oo. It involves several lines of commands to appeal to and approval, beholden to a bunch of budget issues beyond a typical manager's control. Even if they truly want to compensate properly, the company itself may simply decide that they'd rather take chances hiring someone new when/if they need to maintain a potential void, over potentially compensating someone who was

I think the 3rd point is an interesting quandry since it goes against the usual mantra of "People leave managers, not companies".

Re:Ask HN: Managing career progression for those with no int... by zonethundery on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @01:22PM (#28304231)
Agree, but then one is completely dependent on the manager being a thoughtful participant in the corporate meta game. The employee asking makes it _easier_ for the manager to advocate on their behalf.