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Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by robwwilliams on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @03:21PM (#28293584)
I agree with joe!

Neuroscientist love to reify a chunk of brain as responsible for function X. They have done this for 160 years. Only Karl Lashley’s work called “localization” into question but his work was swept aside in the Montcastle-Hubel-Wiesel era of big neuroscience.

Now we do toy experiments using optogenetics of a single inbred strain of mouse and delude ourselves into thinking that we are achieving understanding of a highly complex system.

I’ve worked in this field for 40 years and we are not even asking the right questions.

It is a pity neuroscientists do not know more about analog computing. Can a neuroscientist understand an op amp? Probably not.

To share the harsh light—can a CS expert in AI understand how to get to general AI? Probably not unless, like D. Hassabis, you have a solid background in neuroscience.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by Retric on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @06:06PM (#28295572)
On one level that’s a reasonable take it, on the other simply having enough data is a prerequisite to come up with the right questions. Astronomers collected literally centuries of data to build up ever more complex epicenter models before ellipsis became an clearly better fit to the data.

IMO, neuroscience simply needs that foundational data and current theory is largely pointless.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by jychang on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @08:11PM (#28296616)
Current theory isn't pointless. Current theory straight up doesn't exist.

There is no (non crackpot) theory of mind yet. Most high quality research on the mind (from a non computer science angle) comes from where it breaks down (schizophrenia, autism), since that's where the money is.

Research into AI and neural nets and stuff may change that, but as far as I'm aware an actual model for how thoughts exist doesn't really exist.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by Retric on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @09:40PM (#28297194)
Modern neuroscience is collectively a theory of the mind. It just isn’t a complete bottom up model.
Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by tpuser on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @01:52AM (#28298422)
The hard problem of consciousness is an impassable obstacle given the set of tools that we have and, arguably, ever can have. If we grant that there is some level of physical description (chemical, atomic, sub-atomic, whichever) at which consciousness best adheres, what do we use to make the connection? Symbolic equations and theorems don't cut it, and that's pretty much all we've got. Physical systems are fully described by the collection of their measurable properties (positions, momenta, charges, etc)--there's no way to connect things going on "outside" with subjective experience.

What would an operator which turns a physical state into conscious experience spit out?

C|state> = ????

Can't write down e.g. "The perception of a red apple on a table". Red? Table? Just symbols. Consciousness and word-symbols are just too far apart.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by psyc on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @02:01AM (#28298475)
> The hard problem of consciousness is an impassable obstacle given the set of tools that we have and, arguably, ever can have

I've come to the same conclusion, after reading and thinking about it for 20 years. I no longer search for answers in books, papers, or threads. It's worse than not being able to find any new insights. I never found any insight that goes beyond describing the problem, or defending the existence of the problem. I no longer expect to see any progress on it in my lifetime.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by Retric on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @06:50AM (#28299985)
It is more complex than just a one word description but that’s an argument from absurdity.

Let’s suppose we build a teleport device which can make identical copies. As in your standing in pad X then someone else is standing on pad Y that looks identical to pad X and you both respond identically.

Now, whatever that machine reads as your mind state is your actual mind state. We don’t need to make an actual copy to do exactly what you said was impossible.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by Retric on Wednesday August 25, 2021 @09:41AM (#28301559)
To clarify, you can’t really capture an image with words but a camera can capture an image as symbols. It’s just that a person looking at those symbols can’t see the image. The same is presumably true of a mind.
Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by joe_the_user on Thursday August 26, 2021 @11:34AM (#28316242)
Well, the brain is such rich source of data that unless you know what sort of data to collect, it seems like you'd be at a loss to understand things.

Perhaps what's needed is data-finding tools along with theory.

Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by Retric on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @09:29PM (#28297126)
*epicycle
Re:Mental phenomena don’t map into the brain as expected by zzt123 on Tuesday August 24, 2021 @09:04PM (#28296957)
Regarding could a neuroscientist understand an op amp, https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/jo...