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Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by onlyrealcuzzo on Sunday August 22, 2021 @06:29PM (#28270322)
Weren't a lot of Sweden's deaths very early and from nursing homes specifically because they were taking literally no preventative measures, though?

They learned from this, and recommended different things for older people and nursing homes, specifically, was my understanding.

If you factor out all those deaths in the beginning - the difference in deaths is not 10x.

And 10x doesn't really matter. If 1 person died in Norway and 10 people died in Sweden, I don't think we'd be debating much. Even in Sweden, they did not have as many deaths as most other countries, and a lot of them were very early on.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by Jedd on Sunday August 22, 2021 @09:49PM (#28271585)
> Weren't a lot of Sweden's deaths very early and from nursing homes ...

If the data in the graph shared by kybernetikos is correct, the claim that 'it's all because of elder deaths in early 2020' seems to be misguided, given the 2021-01 peak, and the steady first-place position throughout the last ~18 months.

https://imgur.com/a/BlaU2SX

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:55AM (#28272442)
Considering the vast majority of Sweden is basically uninhabited - I'm not sure why everyone is so dead set on comparing Sweden only with Norway and Finland (I get it that they are similar in this way and many others).

Realistically, most of the people live in a few cities and the density is similar to Ireland, Croatia, Bulgaria, or even Greece.

Sweden after its first wave doesn't look much different than any of those countries.

Is it because a lot of the susceptible people already died? Maybe. But it's not like you can A/B test this stuff.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by Jedd on Monday August 23, 2021 @03:20AM (#28273088)
> Considering the vast majority of Sweden is basically uninhabited ..

Okay then. Most of Australia is uninhabited, so let's compare those two (deaths per million).

> But it's not like you can A/B test this stuff.

You can try, and that's what this story (and similar) tries to do, factoring in variables as best they can.

FWIW the fixation on morbidity, at the exclusion of long term health effects, including the mental and physical health of a society's medical professionals by either being overwhelmed or burned out, is similarly bewildering to me as comparing two countries with similar geographies, climate, and effective population density is to you.

What really scares the willies out of me is that someone will eventually BigData this pandemic, and spit out a number that reflects how many people a nation state should sacrifice per month to maximise the wealth acquisition of the elites. This number will inform how governments will operate during the next pandemic.

This petrifies me because I'm living in Australia, where we've adopted an elimination strategy (well, up until a few weeks ago), and it's worked really well for me, given I have no wish to involuntarily sacrifice myself in the name of a poorly architected and grossly corrupted economic system.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by rapsacnz on Sunday August 22, 2021 @10:45PM (#28271848)
What??!! What I'm hearing when you say "If you factor out all those deaths" is "Old people don't count". Economically they may not have as much impact as younger people, but they provide richness to family and community life that can't be replaced.

So I guess my point is - you can't factor out those 10x people. Because they are dead.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:58AM (#28272456)
No - the point is that at first Sweden had a no-policy, basically, which didn't work out for old people. So that changed that a little, and it seems to have worked much better.

The idea is that since the first wave and them changing their stance slightly - Sweden is not performing an order of magnitude worse than Norway and Finland, and it's pretty average compared to the rest of Europe - and definitely doing better than Russia.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by taeric on Monday August 23, 2021 @12:32AM (#28272356)
I think the point is supposed to be that that figure can be traced to specific decisions regarding nursing homes. The supposed counter factual being that, if they had isolated sick patients from nursing homes, those deaths could have been greatly reduced.

I think it still begs the question that those patients could have been saved, but it is not trying to say that old people don't count. More, that the full lockdowns didn't really protect them, by themselves. As seen in NYC, where it is fairly heavily believed that any good the lockdown did was more than offset by sending patients back into nursing homes.

Re:The Sweden experiment: how no lockdowns led to mental hea... by nickthemagicman on Sunday August 22, 2021 @10:55PM (#28271880)
New York city had the same problems in nursing homes as Sweden.

As they learned more about the virus and adapted their death rate per capita dropped to be on par with Europe..while still maintaining looser restrictions.