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Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by nivenkos on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:43AM (#28220821)
We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities).

I can't see the US ever being willing to make these sacrifices though. If you compare the $/sqft for housing in the US vs. Europe the difference is shocking (even in big cities like Seattle vs. London), same for gasoline prices, etc.

The US has become accustomed to unparalleled comfort and luxury, with central air conditioning and multiple cars practically the norm. If anything, I imagine they'll try to enforce strict emissions controls on developing nations to have the pretence of doing something.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by Glench on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:03AM (#28221044)
> We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities).

This statement is tinged with the idea of sacrifice and loss that is unfortunately one of the hallmarks of the environmental movement. How about this? We can have an emissions-free future that is much more awesome than now with the same size cars and homes. Rewiring America explains how (hint: electrify everything):

https://www.rewiringamerica.org/

Of course, it's also a good idea to reduce our overall consumption, but if you tell people they're going to have to live "worse" lives for the sake of the climate — well I don't think that's true or helpful.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:20AM (#28221289)
It would be great if you were right. But even assuming it's the case, people will have to adjust to the electrical appliances. People in this very community say that they simply cannot learn to cook on an electric stove, or rent a car for the infrequent occasions when they want to travel hundreds of miles, and therefore fossil fuel usage must be continued unabated. Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimaginable. Never mind the kind of more radical change the person you're replying to is talking about.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by Glench on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:18AM (#28222340)
> Even this level of very small sacrifice is unimaginable.

Unimaginable to who? I can easily imagine this. The negatives you list are real, but they'll get rapidly better in the next 20 years (longer range cars, more charging stations for example). But in focusing on the negatives you (and the people you say you're speaking for) forget the positives:

- Electric cars already have the lowest cost of ownership of any cars and are often more fun to drive. The electric Ford pickup is basically just a better version of the fossil pickup.

- Heat pumps can both heat and cool homes meaning there's no need for separate AC/heaters. They're also often installed with mini splits meaning that families have finer-grained control over the temperature in various rooms.

- Induction stoves boil water in under a minute and are way easier to clean than gas or even electric resistance stoves. Plus gas stoves actually cause respiratory issues in homes.

- Without emissions, our air becomes a lot more pleasant to breathe, kills fewer people, and thus overall health improves. Cities in particular will have noticeably better air quality.

- Installing and maintaining electrified machines will create millions of new jobs in every zip code in the country and help distribute wealth.

- All of this will be cheaper to run than fossil fuels due to the inherent efficiency of electrification. The average US household will actually save hundreds of dollars a year on energy bills.

One of the tricks that will help make this all doable is to make emissions-free technologies up-front cheaper than the alternatives. So the thing that's the best for the climate is also best for the consumer's wallet. Government rebates would work great here and there's a bill being worked on right now for this: https://twitter.com/USRepKCastor/status/1426230666857959428

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by ryandrake on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:06PM (#28225768)
We're talking about people unwilling to do so much as wear a small piece of cloth on their face during a global pandemic. You think they can be counted on to make these actual costly sacrifices to help combat climate change? I think that's very optimistic!
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:39AM (#28222778)
I agree with you and do not intend to represent them. Rather I mean it's "unimaginable" to the complainers who are ready to shoot holes in absolutely everything but don't have any plan of their own to address the problem.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by Glench on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:46AM (#28222923)
Maybe you should speak for yourself! :)
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by josephcsible on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:49AM (#28221761)
Aren't stoves unique among gas appliances in that people prefer them over their electric counterparts for reasons other than cost to operate? Couldn't we reduce residential natural gas use by like 90% just by replacing all of the gas water heaters, clothes dryers, and furnaces with electric equivalents?

(Note: I personally like induction stoves the best. I'm not arguing that gas stoves are a good thing, just that we can get 90% of the benefit for only like 10% of the whining by leaving them alone for now.)

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:01AM (#28221979)
Well, maybe, but maybe not. Seems like they've been seized on as a wedge issue for natural gas, and if people "must" have them then we "must" maintain a whole natural gas infrastructure for them and can't limit its use for new construction. According to this article, a fair amount of effort goes into astroturfing the cause: https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2021/06/how-the-foss...
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by kiba on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @09:50AM (#28220897)
We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities).

Is this really a sacrifice?

I can't see the US ever being willing to make these sacrifices though. If you compare the $/sqft for housing in the US vs. Europe the difference is shocking (even in big cities like Seattle vs. London), same for gasoline prices, etc.

I would be more concerned with urban design and zoning than square footage. Bigger house means more maintenance, and bigger lot means more mowing. I for one, hate mowing.

The US has become accustomed to unparalleled comfort and luxury, with central air conditioning and multiple cars practically the norm. If anything, I imagine they'll try to enforce strict emissions controls on developing nations to have the pretence of doing something.

A car is not a luxury. It is an unfortunate and out of control necessity that helps increases the cost of living and make societies less egalitarian, because it is a requirement to use car to do anything of note.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by after_care on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:14AM (#28221159)
I live in a suburb of a medium sized city. It’s not particularly dense, probably slightly lower density than the median American lives in.

My generation Z neighbors (I have two) are very happy to live without a car. They live within three miles of their jobs and use electric scooters for commuting. They have their food and consumer goods shipped to their house. They say that they don’t need to drive anywhere, and the occasion that they want to go somewhere Uber is available. Meanwhile they are saving hundreds to thousands of dollars a month by not having two cars.

I personally (a millennial) have put less than five thousand miles on my car in the last 5 years. People say cars are a requirement for American life, but I find that’s becoming less true for more and more Americans.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:35AM (#28221517)
What is the real estate square foot cost where you live?

Maybe more media-visible Americans are living in such areas now, but supply is extremely tight. A lot of these neighborhoods tend to be older, being poor in previous decades, and now those poor people are getting pushed out to the suburbs where cars are a great required expense.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bradlys on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:56PM (#28224793)
Where are you living? Sounds like you and your neighbors are shut ins who just stream twitch all night. That’s fine but I wouldn’t consider that the norm for gen z or even millennials. (Even if it is popular)

If you go out a few times a week, not having a car in most American cities is quite difficult/burdensome/expensive. Uber alone would be $100 round trip if I wanted to go into the city from where I live. Public transit? Isn’t available past 11pm.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by captainredbeard on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:23AM (#28221327)
> Is this really a sacrifice?

For many people, yes.

> Bigger house means more maintenance, and bigger lot means more mowing. I for one, hate mowing.

No one is forcing you to buy a big home with a maintenance burden. Out of respect, don't force other people into buying smaller ones.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:25AM (#28221349)
That's really sidestepping the issue, isn't it? It's not just about respect and freedom. It's about the externalities created by many people living in large homes.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by kiba on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:30AM (#28221423)
Not really possible to make much choices, when zoning laws made many things illegal, such as mandating minimum lot size and banning higher density development and so forth.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:31AM (#28221444)
Sure, the world of infinite choice is a fantasy anyway. But even if it weren't, I don't think the argument would be very strong.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bradlys on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:59PM (#28224839)
The externalities don’t come from living in large homes. They come from the use of non-renewable resources. Focus on that dude. Stop trying to make everyone live in an SRO.

You can easily give everyone a McMansion and live in some sub 1.5C utopia as long as we focus on where we get our energy and resources from. Stop focusing on consumption quantity because it just sounds like envy.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:31PM (#28227443)
Come on, "you're just jealous" is the best argument you can come up with? You'd be closer to home if you called me a hypocrite but these are just ways to sidestep the question at hand by attacking me personally. Heat pumps are much more efficient, let's grant, but there's no answer with zero waste heat. I think there's a real question whether, no matter how much everything's electrified, a model where everyone rides a single-occupant car nearly everywhere they go is really sustainable.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bradlys on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:42PM (#28227555)
I never said you were jealous. I said you sound like you're envious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPhrTOg1RUk - maybe watch this (it is quite enjoyable!) and it could change your mind about how you think of envy.

Heat pumps just move heat around... They do not create heat. If they did - we'd have some violations of laws. All they're doing is going to transfer geothermal, solar, wind, etc. power into heat transfer - which is transferring heat from outdoors into your home... Which then goes back outdoors at some point. There isn't any "heat" creation here.

What model are you speaking of where they claim electric cars are not viable for the future? (Assuming renewable energy sources and sustainable use of natural resources, etc.)

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:12PM (#28227805)
I'm not watching a 2-hour video to figure out what you think the distinction between jealousy and envy is. The point is, I'm living the same lifestyle as many other Americans but I'm not sure we can do it forever.

I'm not going to dispute the point about heat pumps more because I don't know enough about them to argue credibly about it. Maybe you're right and it's a perfect solution to the problem.

> What model are you speaking of where they claim electric cars are not viable for the future? (Assuming renewable energy sources and sustainable use of natural resources, etc.)

That assumes away the problem I think. Is it really inconceivable that we're going to start hitting limits to resources, especially if we're doubling down on cars which all have their own large batteries, sprawling asphalt, and all the rest of it? It seems really hard to imagine to me that we're going to chance on technology that makes it just as sustainable for everyone to live in a McMansion and drive an F-150 an hour to work as for people to ride trains or bicycles and live in denser housing. Certainly we could do much better than now before we started to nip at that stuff but I feel like there have to be limits. If it's so easy and we have all the answers I have to wonder why all the kicking and screaming to get there.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bradlys on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:32PM (#28227988)
It doesn't assume away the problem. It is the problem. The issue isn't the lifestyle. The issue is how the resources are gathered and how the power is produced. Those are the issues - the lifestyle isn't the issue.

You have been sucked into believing by corporations that you are the issue but it's the corporations who are the issue. They want you to take personal responsibility for their issues. Everything is pushed onto the end user and the individual as responsibility rather than a corporation to do things in a manner that is best for us all. You know why? Cause that's good for the corporations! They can do horrible things and not have to deal with any of the externalities that they're creating and rake in the profit! These strategies have been mainstream for well over 50 years now.

Keep believing that personal responsibility is really the key to solving climate change but it will continue to do nothing and mean nothing. The responsibility is within your governmental body to take over how corporations are producing their products, harvesting resources, generating power, and the externalities that their products create.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:43PM (#28228079)
It's true that "personal responsibility" is a bad framework that lets the corporations off the hook. But it's also true that when people say "the top 100 corporations do 80% of emissions," or whatever the number is, that they're washing their hands of a problem they contribute to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to support our lifestyles.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bradlys on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @06:58PM (#28228195)
> to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to support our lifestyles.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that the products sold to you are not environmentally-friendly/sustainable/whatever? It's not because consumers demand them... Consumers just want something cheap... But consumers aren't paying for externalities upfront... neither are corps... No one pays. Thus, cheaper. You offer two comparable products but one is cheaper - people choose the cheaper one! On top of that, our world and economy is built on these natural resources. Imagine if oil became $0 or $1000/barrel. It'd wreck certain parts of the economy either way - there is a heavy investment and lobbying infrastructure built upon maintaining the status quo.

You really are using the personal responsibility framework to a high extent. Corps are the biggest issue. Most issues of CO2 generators and other such things - people are very happy to use their replacements because there is very little difference in quality of life (sometimes it's even improved). The things people most want that create CO2 and there's no way around it ever are very low contributors to CO2 overall. You could easily wipe out over half of CO2 emissions in USA by just converting everything to renewable energy resources. (electric cars + electricity production + using heat pumps)

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Thursday August 19, 2021 @08:02AM (#28232746)
I used to think this way but I’ve come to suspect that it was a viewpoint attractive to me and others because it was soothing more than right.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by captainredbeard on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:28AM (#28221397)
Maybe
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by onion2k on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:16AM (#28221208)
I don't think you can reasonably compare "European" house sizes using London as an example. The UK is small and ancient. We literally don't have the land necessary for building big houses in cities. There wasn't much land to start with, and changing the use of land that's had buildings on it for 1000 years is incredibly hard. The same is true, with less of a supply limitation, for most cities across Europe. Houses were built many hundreds of years ago, and replacing one with a bigger one requires knocking down the whole neighborhood.

By comparison the US is brand new and has abundant land. Add to that the fact that many houses in the US are timber-framed things that are easy to change and extend, and you have a recipe for big homes.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bobthepanda on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:37AM (#28221556)
The issue in America is that a lot of zoning has minimum lot sizes that are fairly large. If the minimum parcel size is 460 sq m and the parcel can legally only have one house on it, the house might as well be built to take advantage.

Where they are legal (very small percentage of land area), America's tight housing markets see smaller townhomes and apartments sprout like weeds.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by Symbiote on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:48AM (#28221739)
> The UK is small and ancient. We literally don't have the land necessary for building big houses in cities.

British cities like London would have plenty more space if they built up, even slightly. Comparable European cities have 4-8 story apartment buildings in the inner city; London quickly becomes single houses.

> There wasn't much land to start with, and changing the use of land that's had buildings on it for 1000 years is incredibly hard.

Most of London is much, much younger than that. London expanded in the late 19th century, as railways and metro lines were built.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by teeray on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:26AM (#28221367)
> The US has become accustomed to unparalleled comfort and luxury, with central air conditioning…

Heat pumps are probably the most efficient way we have to both cool AND heat a house. This is especially true when combined with solar panels and smart thermostats.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by globular-toast on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:50AM (#28221773)
Yeah, but like most advances in efficiency, it's not used to take less, it's used to take more. Heat pumps could be used in combination with good insulation and good practices to keep houses more comfortable. A few degrees warmer in the winter, a few degrees cooler in the summer. But that's not what happens. Americans use air conditioning to keep their houses cold. People who aren't used to it end up wearing jumpers inside in the summer. No doubt in the winter the heat pump would be used to keep the house warm enough to be naked at all times. Add to that bad insulation and no amount of heat pump efficiency is going to stop the wasted energy.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by josephcsible on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:04AM (#28222047)
Stuff like telling people that stopping global warming means they need to be uncomfortably hot all summer and uncomfortably cold all winter is why so many people don't care about stopping it. Our goal for this should be to get heat pumps and renewable electricity rolled out everywhere, and then let people keep their houses at whatever temperatures they want without contributing to global warming.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by globular-toast on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @02:23PM (#28225194)
But that's not possible. We are nowhere near being able to sustain that. Nowhere near. Reducing our consumption is possible right now.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by emodendroket on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:08AM (#28222109)
If you think summer is uncomfortable now give it time.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by jeffbee on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:18AM (#28221246)
American houses are absolute shite. Americans think they have nice houses because Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by captainredbeard on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:25AM (#28221353)
> American houses are absolute shite

The general level of craftsmanship is lackluster, agreed.

> Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known

Both this and your prior statement are reflections regarding the diversity of the United States: we have a lot of good stuff and a lot of bad stuff. You can find either in abundance and pretend it's the only option, or you can look at it and see a nuanced perspective.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bluedevil2k on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:49AM (#28221764)
What an ignorant and ironically completely uninformed statement of your own. Keep you biases, stereotypes, and outright bigotry off this site please. Travel to a favela, travel throughout Africa, even look at the building quality of houses in Japan…there’s no comparison.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by jeffbee on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:59AM (#28221945)
Yes, that standard American rebuttal. We have better houses than in a favela. We have better health care than Eritrea. Our transportation is better than Kazakhstan … oh shoot, wait, they have more high speed rail than the USA. Scratch that.

I’ve lived in Japan and their housing is far superior. It is newer in general, well-built, quiet, warm, efficient, comfortable, functional, and cheap. American housing stock is none of those things, at twice the price.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by josephcsible on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:17AM (#28222307)
> I’ve lived in Japan and their housing is far superior. It is newer in general, well-built, quiet, warm, efficient, comfortable, functional, and cheap. American housing stock is none of those things, at twice the price.

Don't houses in Japan only last 20-30 years? Isn't the only reason they're newer in general that they have to be rebuilt so often? Houses in America last way longer than twice that, so only paying twice as much seems like a bargain in comparison.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by fomine3 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:26PM (#28229652)
Japanese houses usually lasts at least 40 years unless serious disaster (not earthquake, but like heavy typhoon or tsunami), maybe over 60 years if properly maintenanced. Any house won't last 20 years must be blamed. But just people may don't want to live in 40 years used old house but want only the land.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by jeffbee on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:31AM (#28222612)
When you say that they "last longer" what you mean is that Americans are tolerating the deterioration for longer. Yes, the median American dwelling is 40 years old. No, that's not because they are built to last. Only someone with zero experience abroad thinks a 1980-model American house was built well.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bluedevil2k on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:59AM (#28223124)
Seems like someone just can’t admit they’re wrong.
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by bluedevil2k on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @11:24AM (#28222459)
Then you didn’t really understand how Japan’s houses are built. They’re not built to last at all because new homebuyers buy the property and tear down the house and build a new one. Knowing that, home builders only build them to last 10-20 years and house maintenance is an after thought to most people. Contrast that with American homes, where you can homes in Detroit and Chicago and Boston and thousands of other towns that have been continually lived in for over 100 years. But feel free to keep ranting about things you don’t know about.

And to address your other anti-American points…the world’s rich come here for health care, and it’s the best in the world for cutting edge care. Our highway system is one of the best in the world and we don’t care about high speed rail because of that. Your heavy biases can’t really cover up the facts.

Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by fomine3 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @10:43PM (#28229772)
What's your source?
Re:First town in America to ban new gas stations by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @05:51PM (#28227634)
> Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known.

That is coming very close to personal attack, which is against the site guidelines.