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Re:Economic costs of war by markus_zhang on Monday August 16, 2021 @09:30PM (#28205062)
Nowadays it's already difficult if not impossible. In the age of big data and open manipulation, there is zero incentive for the politicians, corporations and media to promote independent thought for ordinary people, or to put more precisely only independent thoughts that benefit their agendas.

The same goes to millions of middle class employees of those entities. They might want to teach independent thoughts to their own kids but other than that they have zero incentive to promote independent thoughts to their customers because it's profit and power that feeds their family.

I really don't see an easy way out of this downward spiral.

Re:Economic costs of war by asdff on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:54PM (#28205665)
The good news is there are more independent thoughts these days. 70 years ago it was hard having independent thoughts when it was three channels on TV and two newspapers and everyone listened to the same couple of popular artists. Back then, if you were too independent you would get beat up after class or worse.
Re:Economic costs of war by Clubber on Monday August 16, 2021 @11:42PM (#28205979)
This is spot on. As aggravating as YouTube censorship is, it's given the power of the press back to the people, if not just for a little bit. This flew under everyone's radar I think and the powers who typically control the news have been scrambling to regain control.
Re:Economic costs of war by velcii on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:01AM (#28206107)
>it's given the power of the press back to the people

You are mistaken. Social media and things like youtube, just like elections, provide the appearance of power and choice, but just safely let people to let out pent up emotions. Then they safely contain it without it being spilled to the real world to a certain extent, at the same time give the people who participate in them a certain feeling of "doing something", a fallacy that even I am committing right now while I write this comment down..

As Noam Chomsky said "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum".

We already know that youtube and other media like reddit even HN "strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion", and as you said, they also allow very lively debate withing the rest of the spectrum..

Re:Economic costs of war by d110af5ccf on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:44AM (#28207245)
> Then they safely contain it without it being spilled to the real world to a certain extent

Like January 6th? Safe containment indeed.

> youtube and other media like reddit even HN "strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion"

Which results in an ever increasing number of extremist refugees. The Fediverse appears to be growing consistently and I think the systemic mechanisms that are concentrating extreme viewpoints there should be cause for concern.

On the plus side, if a particularly interesting video is removed from YouTube you can often find it mirrored there.

Re:Economic costs of war by anticodon on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @04:07AM (#28207390)
No. YouTube actively blocks any discontent. You can say anything you want as long as it is something that not threatening "democracy" or "liberal discourse". E.g. probably you can upload a video stating that Earth is flat, but you'll be immediately blocked if you upload something criticizing LGBT* or other sensitive areas. I've seen it many times.

Also, YouTube (and Google in general) manipulates search results. E.g. in Russia you're fed by force with Navalny's channel. If you block his channel explicitly, YouTube starts to show you one of the thousand clones of it. Or other content with similar views. While content that contradicts the YouTube censorship policy will be well hidden from view.

It's not a freedom of speech.

I understand that US has the strongest propaganda and state of the art brainwashing techniques. So the usual reply is something like: "But it's the absolute truth! Anyone trying to refute it is a bigot!" But I know the only truth: there's no absolute universal truth. Imagine what science would be if it would be disallowed to refute theories?..

US bigotry is something resembling a religion: "We know better how people in country X should live!", "We know better how all the world should view same sex marriage!", "We know better how the country Y should be governed!", etc, etc. But the point is that most of the time people saying this don't know where the country is located, it's culture and traditions, why the people live the way they live, do they like it or not, etc. They just sure that everyone would be happy to eat hamburgers, drink Coca Cola and have Disneylands everywhere. It's such an arrogant dumb view, but it's ingrained in every western person by the best media and propagandists.

Re:Economic costs of war by drran on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @04:23AM (#28207462)
IMHO, it was a stupid idea to use US based services and servers for informational war against US.
Re:Economic costs of war by anticodon on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @04:32AM (#28207525)
Discontent of any origin is banned, including discontent coming from US citizens.
Re:Economic costs of war by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday August 16, 2021 @10:52PM (#28205647)
"They might want to teach independent thoughts to their own kids but other than that they have zero incentive to promote independent thoughts to their customers because it's profit and power that feeds their family."

This point is about the only bright spot in an otherwise grim perspective. Just about everyone, and that appears to include Putin, wants to do well by their kids education-wise. The rest can fuck off and die, but the self-preservation in the sense of preserving genes by teaching the ability to think critically is important enough that at least there is a chance that spiral will hit a bump here and there.

Re:Economic costs of war by fighterpilot on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @12:06AM (#28206130)
That's right. I don't have existential dread about Putin or Xi. They want total power, wealth and stability. They're corrupt pragmatists, not zealots who are going to die in a nuclear Armageddon. I fear the ideologically committed madman much more.
Re:Economic costs of war by Yoric on Tuesday August 17, 2021 @03:48AM (#28207276)
You have a point.

However, they are also empire builders whose agenda requires weakening the power, wealth and stability of every entity that they consider targets and/or competitor. As someone who lives in one such entity, I consider this threatening.

Not glorious-nuclear-self-destruction dreadful, but still potentially life-threatening.