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Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by vbezhenar on Sunday August 15, 2021 @10:29AM (#28189018)
Why is it crazy? They don't gain anything by supporting IPv6.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by miohtama on Sunday August 15, 2021 @10:40AM (#28189104)
If you can do direct consumer mobile phone IPv6 to server IPv6 there are benefits in latency, throughput, congestion control, analytics and so on. A better user experience. Depending on the hosting setup and networks, this may or may not be significant.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by vbezhenar on Sunday August 15, 2021 @10:49AM (#28189194)
carrier NAT is unlikely to introduce measurable latency, especially in wireless networks. I agree that IPv6 allows for better user tracking, probably that's one of the reasons to adopt it. For example iPhones are virtually indistinguishable from each other, so the only reliable way to track them is cookie or IP address.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by supertrope on Sunday August 15, 2021 @11:41AM (#28189647)
It costs money to buy and maintain CG NAT infrastructure. Local authorities will demand you log who had what IP address at the time of interest.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by ipv6_or_nat on Sunday August 15, 2021 @11:52AM (#28189738)
IPv4 or CGNAT costs are not optional. You will have to pay them regardless of if you deploy IPv6 or not.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by toast0 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @11:59AM (#28189809)
IPv4 and CGNAT costs scale with usage. The more traffic you offload to IPv6, the less CGNAT capacity you need and the less IPv4 space you need; you need enough IPv4 addresses so you can give out unique IP:Ports for all concurrent connections to popular destination IP:Ports.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by 2fastpost on Sunday August 15, 2021 @01:48PM (#28190711)
None of those are arguments for why IPv4 or CGNAT costs are optional; you cannot run an ISP without IPv4 or CGNAT, therefore the IPv4 or CGNAT costs are not optional. You will incur them regardless of if you deploy IPv6 or not.

If you deploy IPv6, you might not deploy CGNAT, but unless you are dual stacking, something functionally equivalent is required.

As to scaling costs, IPv6 offload isn’t a 1:1 replacement for IPv4 or CGNAT capacity. You need enough capacity to carry the IPv6 traffic over IPv4 in case your IPv6 transport, transit or peers fail. Again, not optional.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by supertrope on Sunday August 15, 2021 @02:41PM (#28191243)
Parent commenter wasn't saying that CG NAT costs could be avoided entirely. Deploying IPv6 gets Netflix, YouTube, Facebook and other popular traffic to connect directly. That means less racks of CG NAT.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by 2fastpost on Sunday August 15, 2021 @03:07PM (#28191493)
Like I said, you can only avoid CGNAT costs if you accept the failure modes inherent if/when your IPv6 fails.

Thus in a properly designed network these are not optional costs.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by Dagger2 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:31AM (#28218533)
You do avoid some of the cost, because you can direct a significant amount of your traffic over v6 and not need to CGNAT it.

The failure mode for your v6 failing is the same as it is for v4 failing in a v4-only ISP: stuff breaks. If you want to fix that you need a redundant failover setup, which is the same thing you need in v4 except cheaper because it doesn't need to do CGNAT.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by toast0 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @03:06PM (#28191480)
> You need enough capacity to carry the IPv6 traffic over IPv4 in case your IPv6 transport, transit or peers fail. Again, not optional.

Surely you need enough IPv6 capacity incase your IPv4 transit fails as well. If JIO could have built enough IPv4 capacity to run their network over IPv4, they would have, but they can't, so they've been pushing IPv6 hard.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by 2fastpost on Sunday August 15, 2021 @03:20PM (#28191628)
You are likely to be unable to source the missing IPv4 traffic over IPv6.

I’m not familiar with JIO’s setup, but that’s an interesting question. If their IPv6 was down, would their network still be able to deliver? Would they run out of CGNAT capacity or IPv4 translations?

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by toast0 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @03:27PM (#28191684)
If their IPv6 failed, they would almost certainly run with significant service disruption.

IPv6 is no longer optional for them. I suspect it's not optional for T-Mobile USA either. Or Facebook/Google/Netflix.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by 2fastpost on Sunday August 15, 2021 @03:37PM (#28191779)
Don’t think IPv4 is optional for any of them either.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by supertrope on Sunday August 15, 2021 @02:41PM (#28191250)
Less racks of CG NAT. Deploying IPv6 gets Netflix, YouTube, Facebook and other popular traffic to connect directly.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by somerandomqaguy on Sunday August 15, 2021 @12:27PM (#28190071)
Wouldn't that cost be easy to pass along to the customers though? Assuming the authorities aren't discriminating against a single ISP, then all the ISP's can just raise their price at the same time.

Or have I been living with Canadian ISPs too long and that sort of thing doesn't happen in the rest of the world?

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by billytetrud on Sunday August 15, 2021 @12:39PM (#28190172)
It's super weird you think passing costs onto consumers makes the problem go away. When a company passes costs to their consumers, consumers buy their product less, so that company loses money anyway.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by ClumsyPilot on Sunday August 15, 2021 @12:51PM (#28190261)
Sorry, i am concerned about me, the consumer, loosing money
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by tpxl on Sunday August 15, 2021 @01:54PM (#28190754)
You do lose money because they raised the prices.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by pixl97 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @01:45PM (#28190684)
CGNAT is a consumer nightmare that makes them a second class citizen dependent on large providers to offer services.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by belorn on Sunday August 15, 2021 @11:37AM (#28189609)
I all the studies I have seen, ipv6 enabled networks outperform ipv4 only networks in term of latency.

Improved latency mean improved responsiveness, and that in turn has companies claiming improved user retention and sales.

If you need an argument to support ipv6, those seems like good reasons to support ipv6.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by ipv6_or_nat on Sunday August 15, 2021 @11:48AM (#28189707)
I can’t see any difference in latency in the services I use between IPv4 and IPv6.

What I want to know is do all these studies take into consideration the “happy eyeballs” algorithm that prefers IPv6 over IPv4 in web browser requests, thus delaying the IPv4 request?

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by betterunix2 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @01:10PM (#28190410)
The latency in question has to do with routers. IPv6 packets have a simpler header that does not force routers to recompute a checksum for each hop, and IPv6 allows better route aggregation which reduces the CPU overhead of route selection in some cases.
Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by 2fastpost on Sunday August 15, 2021 @02:06PM (#28190854)
I am unaware of any router forwarding IPv4 packets slower than IPv6 packets. Can you back up this claim with any sources?

Route aggregation or selection does not impact forwarding performance on a router.

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by Dagger2 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @03:47AM (#28218628)
I've heard this claim too: apparently Facebook tested a lot of routers, and they consistently routed v6 ~500us faster than v4. v6 has no checksum, so routers don't need to recalculate it when they decrement the TTL header, and it does make sense that removing a step would help. Unfortunately my source for this is "I heard it from someone that works at Facebook".

In practice this is only a small part of final performance, so you need to do end-to-end measurements to get a proper idea of what people will experience. Both Facebook[1] and Apple[2] have done that, showing 10% faster page loads and 40% faster connection establishment respectively on v6. Even if that was solely down to routing policies, it's still a measurable difference.

[1] https://engineering.fb.com/2015/09/14/networking-traffic/ipv...

[2] https://www.sidn.nl/en/news-and-blogs/apple-connections-esta...

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by betterunix2 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @07:31PM (#28193542)
A few years old but here you go:

https://www.retevia.net/fast/

In some cases, yes, the routing table size will impact performance; for example if the FIB is too big to fit in TCAM:

https://labs.apnic.net/?p=520

Note that this particular incident was caused by deaggregation of routes announced by Verizon, and that had the routes been properly aggregated it could have been avoided (though normal routing table growth would have eventually caused the problem anyway).

Re:India is leading IPv6 migration with 61.67% adoption by ipv6_or_nat on Monday August 16, 2021 @05:00AM (#28196184)
Oh, come on!

Geoff’s article on TCAM exhaustion is almost 10 years old. No BGP router in the default free zone has had a 512k route limit in years. Modern routers typically scale to millions of routes.

The incident in question was the result of misconfiguration and/or ISPs trying to run old routers past their usable life.

The whole thing was completely avoidable and not related to IPv4 vs IPv6 forwarding performance.

As to the IPv6 latency article, it can best be summarized as IPv6 sometimes has lower latency than IPv4, except when it doesn’t.

In no shape, way or form does the article claim that IPv6 forwarding performance is better than IPv4 forwarding performance.

There’s some hand waving about NAT, but it also notes that increasing the number of NAT levels improved latency!

The simplest explanation is that the differences come down to different routing policies in IPv4 and IPv6. Thus it depends on where you stand as to what you see.