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Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by zetalyrae on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:44PM (#28176666)
This may be fallacious, but I am automatically dismissive when a drug from one area of medicine is recruited as a treatment for a completely disjoint disorder. I need a somewhat plausible sounding mechanism of action, even if it's hypothetical. Because it fits a pattern I've observed where a drug is discovered, and it's on the cover of every magazine as a panacea[0], and then it doesn't pan out and it fades back into the small niche where it actually works.

So I dismissed HCQ and Ivermectin out of hand.

[0]: Interferon was on the cover of TIME in ~1980 as a cancer cure.

(EDIT: but I'm not an MD, just a crazy person who likes reading pubmed, so my views are pure superstition)

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by ekianjo on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:58PM (#28176751)
> I am automatically dismissive when a drug from one area of medicine is recruited as a treatment for a completely disjoint disorder.

I guess you have never heard of Viagra.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by zetalyrae on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:05PM (#28176792)
But viagra has a plausible-sounding (to me, I am not an MD) mechanism of action. Whereas in the first paper[0] about chloroquine for COVID, the claim is:

>This drug has multiple activities, one of which is to alkalise the phagolysosome, which hampers the low-pH-dependent steps of viral replication, including fusion and uncoating. Other mechanisms of antiviral activity are poorly explained.

Which sounds like limited evidence.

[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7134866/

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by ekianjo on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:52PM (#28177087)
> Other mechanisms of antiviral activity are poorly explained.

You would be surprised how many drugs have an unclear mechanism of action. If you think we know everything in Biology you might want to revise your judgment.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by s5300 on Friday August 13, 2021 @10:46PM (#28177374)
Maybe I'm wrong, but I really want to be able to mostly correctly presume that the average HN user over the age of like... 20(?) probably has vague knowledge of the fact we don't understand the mechanism of things like acetaminophen (Tylenol) and most anesthetics...

Furthermore, most chemical engineering/pharmacy students learn that with today's regulations, acetaminophen would've never been approved. Do we think that's a good thing? I don't.

That said, I still very much agree with the parent poster's view.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by jwbwater on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:10AM (#28177822)
Anyone that has ever taken a class in molecular biology or biophysics knows that it's ridiculously complex. Many drugs that look promising in vivo or in animals fail to perform in humans. Empirical evidence is what counts. Even targeted enzyme inhibitors are made by a shotgun approach. Synthesize 1000s of candidates and try them all to see which ones work best in vivo and then try those in animals and then try those winners in humans.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by loopz on Friday August 13, 2021 @11:26PM (#28177580)
That's no reason to try out random drugs, and pick some of those due to noise and artifacts in the tests.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by sterlind on Saturday August 14, 2021 @04:35AM (#28179084)
That's pretty much how small-molecule drug development works. They have huge high-throughput screening machines to churn through libraries of millions of chemicals, running assays to see whether they produce the desired results in vitro. Throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

Once they get hits, they run more big assays, winnowing down likely tox issues or off-target effects, then try them in animal models, then eventually get to Phase I.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by ekianjo on Saturday August 14, 2021 @06:24AM (#28179582)
That's pretty much how drug development is done, especially at scale. You have robots running tests on hundreds/thousands of molecules in mini-tubes to check if anything has any kind of effect.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by fighterpilot on Saturday August 14, 2021 @10:33AM (#28180960)
Isn't there a huge difference between in vivo and in vitro, though? If it's in vitro, you can actually physically check that it's working, and then rerun it to confirm. If it's in vivo and you're doing an RCT it's much more prone to statistical noise and the other issues, which is why it's bad to try things out randomly and see what sticks. At a test power of 0.05, one in twenty studies will stick due to chance.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by ekianjo on Sunday August 15, 2021 @10:48AM (#28189191)
It's a selection process. In vitro is for identifying candidates for pre-clinical tests, mostly.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by dekhn on Saturday August 14, 2021 @09:53AM (#28180631)
that's the best method we have so far! really. I work in drug discovery.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by nradov on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:05PM (#28176797)
This article explains the suspected mechanism of action. I'm not claiming that ivermectin is actually effective, but the biochemistry is at least plausible.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422...

In general small molecule drugs often hit multiple different pathways. It's not reasonable to put them into neat little buckets.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by zetalyrae on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:10PM (#28176823)
Good point. As I said, it may be fallacious reasoning on my part :)

I suppose what this underscores is: biology is immensely complex and first-principles thinking can only get you so far. Eventually, you need to test things with a big RCT to know what's going on.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by shakna on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:50PM (#28176709)
Interferon is still used as a cancer therapy today. [0] Quite a number of drugs are highly effective in different fields of study.

[0] https://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/cancer-in-gene...

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by jwbwater on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:13AM (#28177831)
A plausible mechanism of action is no where near good enough. Molecular biology is crazy complicated and lots of things that sound plausible don't work (and maybe do the opposite). I'll take "it works, but we don't know why" over "this is why we think it might work" every time.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by ksaj on Saturday August 14, 2021 @12:22AM (#28177874)
There are actually a number of drugs where they specifically state the actual mechanism of action is unknown, but they do know from proper and continued clinical trials that the drug does indeed work. A lot of pain killers are in that category.

Here is a list of 68 drugs that are known to work, but apparently we don't know how or why:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Drugs_with_unknown_me...

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by rsynnott on Saturday August 14, 2021 @09:10AM (#28180328)
> This may be fallacious, but I am automatically dismissive when a drug from one area of medicine is recruited as a treatment for a completely disjoint disorder.

I mean, it sometimes works, and obviously it's a very attractive idea (no need to wait on slow trials; drug is already assessed for safety) but precisely because it's such an attractive idea people seem to be overly credulous about it.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by copperx on Saturday August 14, 2021 @02:31AM (#28178557)
Interferon is a cancer cure (albeit limited to specific kinds, and abysmally low complete cure rates -- but a cure nonetheless for some people).
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by rbanffy on Friday August 13, 2021 @08:57PM (#28176746)
IIRC HCQ was flagged in computational models as promising, but the concentrations required to have an actual effect are a large multiple of the lethal doses.

There is a ton of politically driven disinformation around. Brazilian president Bolsonaro pushed both as treatments while, we now know, government representatives were stalling direct purchases from labs while negotiating vaccines with intermediaries in order to profit from sales to the government.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by cheaprentalyeti on Friday August 13, 2021 @09:11PM (#28176825)
>...but the conentrations required to have an actual effect are a large multiple of the lethal doses..."

Which was the excuse they gave when they designed actual drug trials that gave patients lethal doses and ignored the testimony of doctors who found it useful at sub-lethal doses. And therefore a drug used by tens of millions of people a year(if not more) for the past five decades was declared too dangerous to use.

Addendum: I wound up arguing with someone that thus-and-such a trial was actually using what was considered an overdose in 2017 and they would not look at the entry in the PDR.

Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by s5300 on Friday August 13, 2021 @10:42PM (#28177357)
Quite unfortunately, the general public, and thus elected officials, do not appear to be capable of this sort of logical deduction.
Re:Major study of Ivermectin finds 'no effect whatsoever' by loopz on Friday August 13, 2021 @11:31PM (#28177602)
Why would they without expertise in the medical field? It's not something to dismiss out of hand either.