News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by troymc on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:07AM (#28142152)
It was news to me. I hold USDC because I thought every USDC was backed by a US dollar. That's what all their statements said. I don't even know what commercial paper is. Why did they find the need to back some USDC with that? Is something wrong? The lack of communication is troubling.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by relax88 on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:43AM (#28142594)
It’s actually not very complicated how all of this works:

* Crypto exchanges have the problem of collecting fees in crypto, and wanting to make a profit in USD.

* Stablecoin operator receives commercial paper (IOUs) from businesses, usually crypto exchanges. Issues tokens in return. (Note that the Stablecoin issuers are connected directly to the biggest exchanges e.g. Bitfinex/Coinbase/Binance)

* Now the crypto exchange has a debt to the Stablecoin operator, some crypto profits, and some stablecoins.

* Crypto company trading desk does the following:

  * Trade crypto (e.g. Bitcoin) for USD and take profit

  * Trade stablecoins for crypto on any number of exchanges
The Stablecoin allows them to take profit without trading against themselves, and it allows them to remove USD from the system while adding debt in the form of an IOU. It also spreads liquidity risk across the entire ecosystem and allows the movement of vast sums without banking regulations getting in the way.

So yes… there is something very wrong.

What is amazing is how many people are blind to it.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by lamontcg on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:45PM (#28144403)
I think you're basically correct, but I think the "commercial paper" or "cash equivalents" or whatever they want to call it is loans that originate from the stablecoin issuer, that are against crypto cold wallets of the customer.

There's about 1,000,000 BTC in cold wallets of customers of stablecoins. They prove to the stablecoin issuer that they control the wallet (send two small transactions to some address somewhere). Then the issuer loans them the stablecoin and holds the paper against that debt, denominated in dollars. This provides a service to create liquidity out of BTC cold wallets, which is why it is popular to begin with.

Since the debt is dollar denominated that means if the stablecoin falls to $.50 then they have to pay back half the debt in real USD. So that creates upwards pressure to maintain the PEG. Downwards pressure is easy and just profit taking if it exceeds $1.00

Also explains why Tether printing stops once the outstanding number of Tethers is worth roughly 1,000,000 BTC and BTC pulls back. Once the BTC price falls much lower than that, you start to see redemptions and burn. Then when it rises near that point again you start to see more issuance.

This also answers the question of "who buys Tethers with USD?" Nobody does, it is all crypto debt.

And this all creates a positive feedback cycle driven by debt, backed by crypto. What could go wrong?

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by deweller on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:06AM (#28142907)
Serious question: What is wrong with this?
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by relax88 on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:29PM (#28144154)
The “corporate paper” backing the now nearly $100 BILLION of issued stablecoins relies largely on crypto exchanges to continue making money in order to have any value whatsoever.

This is basically a giant distributed Ponzi scheme resembling wildcat banks of the early 1800s. Customer US dollars come into the market, USD goes out into the pockets of crypto insiders, and the crypto market remains propped up by the “value” of these stablecoins.

The only thing that keeps it going is that the stablecoin issuers (same people who are running the exchanges) have no incentive to collect the debt they are owed so everyone is happy (for now).

Crypto fans like to think they are innovating but all they’ve done is found a way to circumvent regulation and try a concept that was ended in 1863 by the national bank act.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking

If you think this ends any other way than regulation and tears I’m not sure what to tell you.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by dsr_ on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:20AM (#28142294)
If you think USDC is backed 1:1 by US dollars, you should try selling them all and see what you get.

If you sell early enough, you might get most of your money back because other people aren't paying attention, or have been similarly misled.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by alisonkisk on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:45AM (#28142629)
A regular bank is the same. If everyone withdraws, not everyone gets paid. FDIC offers partial protection, though.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by elliekelly on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:07AM (#28142921)
It most certainly is not the same. Take WaMu, for example. I think it was the largest bank failure in the history of the United States and it was largely due to a bank run.

Do you know how much money depositors lost? $0.00

And I don’t mean only up to the FDIC insured amount. Even those with WaMu deposits well in excess of FDIC coverage didn’t lose a penny. And it wasn’t thanks to the complex system of placing overnight deposits at various institutions for pass-through coverage in excess of the FDIC amount.

Because do you know how much money the FDIC insurance fund lost paying out claims to WaMu depositors? $0.00

Do you know who did lose a lot of money? WaMu investors and shareholders.

That is not even remotely close to how a stablecoin or crypto “bank run” would play out. Our banking system has built-in safety nets that work. Crypto safety nets don’t even exist.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by whitepaint on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:23AM (#28142343)
I'm in the same boat. Seriously, WTF?! We really can't have centralized entities issuing stable coins, can we.

The real solution is DAI, right?

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by unyttigfjelltol on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:35AM (#28142506)
>We really can't have centralized entities issuing stable coins, can we.

You can. It's called a 'bank' and they're heavily regulated.

Instead, what crypto has are wildcat banks. You've never heard that term because when they existed, 150 years ago, "[b]ank closures and outright scams regularly occurred, leaving people with worthless money."[1] Sound familiar?

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by jameshart on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @12:57PM (#28144568)
That’s an absolutely fascinating Wikipedia rabbit hole. I would pay good money to read a Neal Stephenson book set among Michigan wildcat bankers and railroad venture capitalists in the 1830s…
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by freddieoduks on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:41AM (#28142572)
Unfortunately DAI is also now collateralised by USDC, I read somewhere is up to 30% (haven't been able to verify) but I'm not sure what effect it'll have on DAI if USDC collapses. More here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/comments/nwydtj/what_is_th...
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by leppr on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:40AM (#28142563)
The reason the crypto world uses dollar-pegged tokens in the first place is for their relatively stable value. The downside is that obviously this stability is not perfect, and it's managed by a centralized entity, which as monstrously big and powerful it may be, is still a single point of failure with its own interests. The real ultimate solution is to detach from the US dollar and get value stability from somewhere else, e.g. RAI[1].

[1]: https://reflexer.finance/

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by lugged on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:31AM (#28142452)
Just hold BUSD if you're concerned, that really is safe, even in turbulent market conditions.

Not financial advice.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by ethanbond on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:36AM (#28142517)
Why exactly would you think BUSD is safe? Buy USD. Financial advice.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by kenneth on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:03AM (#28142867)
Why would you think USD is safe? It's been dropping precipitously over the past 18 months as the Federal Reserve just increases the money supply exponentially. Just check the USD/CHF pair for an example.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by yunohn on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @02:34PM (#28145864)
How is this solved by buying a stablecoin? It’s pegged to 1 USD regardless of inflation.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by ethanbond on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @01:33PM (#28145042)
BUSD's risk is a superset of USD's, no? It's just USD but you subtract the part where the world's most powerful military cares about it and then you add in a part where random crypto people can add their own fraud.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by bequanna on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:13AM (#28142211)
A simple Google search will answer your question about commercial paper. As for why they would do this: cash management 101. Why let cash sit in an account when you can make interest on low or no risk, short term debt?

Crypto/defi/etc is high risk and requires you to DYOR. If that makes you uncomfortable, this space may not be a good fit for you.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by scarmig on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:20AM (#28142300)
> Why let cash sit in an account when you can make interest on low or no risk, short term debt?

Because you've promised "investors," or at least made lots of strong statements that led them to believe, that you're letting cash sit in an account?

When I invest in a fund, and it says that it does X, but then secretly does Y because they believe it's obviously better, that's something between totally untrustworthy and outright fraud.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by bequanna on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:25AM (#28142371)
This is a somewhat naïve view.

Investing in high quality short term commercial paper or treasuries is essentially the same or less risk vs. letting $XX billion sit in some bank account.

In accounting, these instruments are actually regarded the same as cash and called “cash equivalents”.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by scarmig on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:46AM (#28142636)
In 2006, the original money market fund, the Reserve Primary Fund, decided to purchase risk-free commercial paper, and by 2008 over half its assets were in this risk free, high quality commercial paper.

Unfortunately, a significant part of this risk free, high quality commercial paper was issued by Lehman. And that risk free, high quality commercial paper turned out to be worthless, causing the oldest money market fund to fail and forcing it to liquidate, at well below $1.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by NationalPark on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:26AM (#28142390)
If it’s the same risk then why does it pay more than T bills? Regardless, the issue is the misrepresentation, not the actual assets (which most people don’t believe add up to the total anyway, right?)
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by AlexandrB on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:36AM (#28142515)
We haven't seen a true market crash in >10 years and everyone has forgotten why commercial paper is not the same as cash.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by kiklion on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:02AM (#28142858)
I have no crypto investments, but this is basically where the line is for me. If they took the 1 USD backing the coin and invested it in US government bonds so that only a fraction is immediately available (but a large enough fraction to cover the most likely withdrawal rates) then it would be fine with me though they should advertise that more clearly.

If they take the money and invest it in ‘good’ companies, that is too much risk to the underlying assets.

Though I’m American and could see foreigners not thinking US bonds were safe enough.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by nonameiguess on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:40AM (#28142557)
It's important to remember commercial paper tanked and almost took the global economy with it only 13 years ago. The only reason it's regarded as low risk, if you're AIG or Bank of America, is the US government has shown an extreme willingness to bail you out by buying them at face value even when they become worthless on the open market. The US government is extremely unlikely to bail out Coinbase.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by scarmig on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:17AM (#28143033)
> The US government is extremely unlikely to bail out Coinbase.

Part of Coinbase's implicit strategy is to become the "too big to fail" of the crypto space. And if its collapse would threaten to destabilize the broader financial system, the US gov absolutely would bail it out.

We've not reached that point yet (and hopefully never will), but it's important to understand the play here.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by ketzo on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:11AM (#28142959)
“essentially the same” is… not as reassuring as you think it sounds, not when we’re talking $28 billion in circulation.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by AlexandrB on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:34AM (#28142489)
> requires you to DYOR

How do you do this when the parties involved are not transparent about their holdings and have a history of misleading investors? Go off of rumours? Given their history, why would I believe that USDC is actually holding short term commercial paper and not higher risk, higher return equities?

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by bequanna on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @11:08AM (#28142932)
I’m not saying you should trust USDC is backed by anything at all.

It is tricky situation. Consumers want assurances, protection but the crypto true believers abhor regulation and disclosure. Trust is difficult in this space and right now many people are speculators consumed by FOMO vs. rational individuals/institutions. No one knows how this will all play out.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by simmerup on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:21AM (#28142317)
The fact that a stable coin should be assumed to be high risk betrays a major problem of the crypto crowd.
Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by bequanna on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:27AM (#28142397)
It’s new and relatively untested.

We don’t say that because new spacecraft have a high risk of failure vs a 747 that there is a “major problem” with space exploration.

Re:Coinbase Drops Promise of Token’s Cash Backing That Wasn’... by gogoincar on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:53AM (#28142735)
True, but in this case the new spacecraft is being marketed as a safe alternative to the 747, while still having a higher risk of failure.