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Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by claudiulodro on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:19PM (#28131559)
> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist?

Yes?

> Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

> No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

> Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

> Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

> Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

> etc.

> https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by agent327 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:33PM (#28132467)
>> Should you be given free shit simply because you exist?

>Yes?

Surely you understand the logistical problem this brings: if you get given free shit, there must also be a party who is giving free shit. Let's say you live on an island with just one other person. You are both entitled to free shit, but somebody has to put in the work to get the shit. Should the other person work to get his own shit and your shit, or should you work to get your shit and also his shit?

Where is the shit going to come from, in a way that doesn't require slavery for others?

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by myWindoonn on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:58PM (#28132763)
Sure. Let's ask for something easier, then; let's only have free stuff which is already in abundance. We aren't living on a remote island; we are living in a society which already has lots of extra stuff which could be given away for free.

For example, how can an all-you-can-eat restaurant stay in business if they let everybody eat as much as they (rationally-economically) want to eat, and labor has to be paid? If food is abundant, then the cost of each individual patron's meal is negligible and it becomes a question of whether enough people come through the door to pay for labor.

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by agent327 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:50PM (#28134314)
On my hypothetical island, pretty much the only thing in abundance is sand. Everything else you have to work for. Who is going to do that work?

Your problem is that you don't see that all that "abundance" of food was grown by people, transported by people, prepared by people, and served by people, and none of them are your slaves. If they had the chance to get their own free shit without having to do all that labour, they totally would. But then who would remain to do the work?

The all you can eat restaurant stays in business by charging enough for meals that they can be reasonably sure that you'll won't eat more than the food is worth. However, that doesn't reduce the value of the food to zero.

Let's try another thought experiment. In my experience, all you "shit should be free" types assume all value flows from the state. That's wrong; it flows from individuals that are taxed by the state. Why don't you, as an individual, open an all you can eat restaurant where people can eat for free? Why not be the change you want to see?

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by myWindoonn on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @02:16PM (#28145630)
Your position has been examined to death already: https://existentialcomics.com/comic/234
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by agent327 on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @04:02PM (#28147002)
Whereas yours hasn't been challenged nearly enough.

Your position is only tenable if you are part of an upper class that has others in a lower class working for them, and involuntarily donating the fruits of their labor. In another word, you wish to reintroduce slavery.

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by myWindoonn on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:28PM (#28159049)
Sanity check: You think that the existence of all-you-can-eat restaurants, whose basic balance sheets contradict your assertion that food is not abundant, is classist and promotes slavery?
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by agent327 on Sunday August 15, 2021 @04:45AM (#28187192)
Sanity check: all you can eat restaurants are not free. You still pay for the food. And there's only so much you can eat during opening hours.

Your problem is that you presume food is abundant because it just is. Reality is that food is being produced, by people who want to be paid for it. Take away that payment, and they will stop producing.

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by myWindoonn on Sunday August 15, 2021 @11:21AM (#28189465)
I didn't claim that all-you-can-eats were free, only that they could stay in business despite apparently operating at a loss. This is precisely because the food is much cheaper than a rationalist or economist would predict it to be; it's abundant.

Food is abundant because of the Haber process [1] and other industrial-era improvements to food production. Only about 2% of our total labor output is required in order to produce all of our food [2]. The government subsidizes 10% of all food production and purchases [3][4]. If we already can afford to pay 2% of our population to make all of the food, and we already give away 10% of it for free, then it seems like we could reasonably discuss giving away more food for free without disenfranchising farmers.

Edit: I just realized that you might be clueless about this entire corner of sociology, so I should tell you about government cheese [5]. WP says, "Government cheese was created to maintain the price of dairy when dairy industry subsidies artificially increased the supply of milk and created a surplus of milk that was then converted into cheese, butter, or powdered milk." In other words, the government put too much money into making food, and gave away the surplus, and this has been happening continuously for decades.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process

[2] https://csanr.wsu.edu/we-are-the-98-percent/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_St...

[4] https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/ag-and-food-statistic...

[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_cheese

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by agent327 on Wednesday August 18, 2021 @01:55PM (#28224771)
I still don't get why you think all you can eat restaurants operate at a loss. Businesses that operate at a loss close after a while; all you can eat restaurants are no different. However, they tend to turn a profit by charging you a pretty sum just for the privilege of eating there (you do know you have to pay for all-you-can-eat restaurants, right?), in the hope that you are not so hungry that you will bankrupt them. In other words, they are taking a gamble - but it's a gamble that usually works out fine for them.

Your link specifically says that 2% of the labor force are farmers. It does NOT say that all people involved in the entire chain of activities that ends with food sitting on your plate represent just 2% of the labor force. Other people involved are the people who make the fertilizer, the people who package the food (for example, by canning it), the people who put it on store shelves, and the people who transport it all at each stage. Your fourth link has a helpful chart: actual farming represents a mere 7.6% of the cost of the food.

Your links do not establish that 10% of the food production was subsidized. Even if they did, a subsidy is not free money; it is paid from taxes that everybody pays. Thus, assuming the 10% number holds up, the only conclusion that you can draw is that 10% of the cost of food production is socialized.

It does not logically follow that if we pay a certain percentage of the labor force for food production, we can therefore afford to give the food away for free. That assumes there is undue profit in the chain that could be removed. Such profit might exist, but you have done nothing to establish that as a fact.

Sociology is not the science of government cheese. Even so, the overproduction only represents yet another failure of central planning; the free market would not have made such a mistake. It is public money, taken from tax payers, and spent on producing unwanted goods. Nothing about it is free.

However, that 'sociology' does explain a lot about why you are so horribly misinformed about how the world works.

Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by claudiulodro on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:36PM (#28132515)
I believe the "through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State" line covers that situation.
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by dbsmith83 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:30PM (#28134012)
I think you misread the whole thing you posted. It literally talks about the right to work and the right to leisure with respect to reasonable working hours. I don't see any right to just sit on your ass and consume things.
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by mgh2 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @01:38PM (#28131797)
*Only if you are American. Good luck if you are not.
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by newfriend on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @02:07PM (#28132155)
None of these things indicate that I should be forced to pay for someone who doesn't want to work.
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by decebalus1 on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:12AM (#28142203)
Fresh example of what you've been already forced to pay: https://www.propublica.org/article/secret-irs-files-reveal-h...
Re:The 'Great Resignation' is really the 'Great Discontent' by decebalus1 on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @04:52PM (#28134351)
I would gladly pay taxes to cover someone who isn't able to work for one reason or another. Because you never know what life gives you. In an unfortunate turn of events, that person can be me or you. I would NOT pay taxes to subsidize Bezos's business so that he can have his space cowboy adventures. That's just the latest and most popular. But the same applies for the 2008 bailouts, Covid stimulus bailouts, corporate tax cuts, corporate tax incentives, corporations paying peanuts forcing people to strain the (already thin) social safety net (see how many fully employed folks are on food stamps) etc.. The latter is perpetual, business as usual and except for some people complaining (the 'radical left') it's regarded as 'the right thing to do'. The former has been beaten out of the American consciousness by decades of rightwing propaganda.