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Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by stavros on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @08:50AM (#28128168)
Hmm, I see, thank you. So it's space itself that expands, not just the objects in it that accelerate apart from one another. But then doesn't that mean that some of that space is expanding inside the objects? Do we know what happens there? How do objects just get more space inside them?
Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by JZumun on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:22AM (#28128492)
(Assuming space expands evenly) we don't notice the expansion of space inside objects because the electromagnetism and gravity are vastly more powerful on the scales we care about and nullifies the effect. That's why atoms and galaxies in the Local Group stay together, but everything farther away is flying further away.

If expansion never stops accelerating, one day in the far future it will overcome all the other fundamental forces and everything will be torn apart in a Big Rip.

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by grkvlt on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @11:12AM (#28129808)
wait - does this mean that some super capable civilisation could link the various galaxies in their inter-galactic empire with a space-railway (i.e. using actual physical tracks between them in space) assuming they have the staggeringly vast amount of matter and/or energy needed, then this would gravitationally bind them together and space between them could not expand?
Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by lalaithion on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:02PM (#28132810)
No, "gravitationally binding" is not a thing that you can do by connecting things via railways. Over the long distances, the railways would be torn apart by expansion.

If you could drastically increase the mass of the local group, then you could increase the range at which gravitational attraction to it was dominating, but it would require seriously increasing the mass of the local group.

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by grkvlt on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @06:51AM (#28140447)
> over the long distances, the railways would be torn apart by expansion

i'm not sure i get it. as i understood it, it was the fact that forces over a small scale dominate the effects of space expanding that prevents e.g. atoms getting bigger. so why would my space-railway tracks (made of continuous welded steel space-rails) not stay the same size (2m wide by thousands of light years long) as well?

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by Thiez on Wednesday August 11, 2021 @10:01AM (#28142076)
Imagine a rope, and an infinite crowd of people wanting to play tug of war. If the rope is only 4 meters long, only a few people can tug, and the rope stays together. Now imagine the rope is 1 light year long. Say each person needs about 1 meter of rope, and 1 light year is about 9,5e+15 meters. So we can make two teams of almost 5 quadrillion people each, and they can start tugging. The rope is probably going to snap.

The space expansion effect is very weak at small scales, so it's easily overcome by small objects, such as a short rope (or a railway). But this small force acts on the entire object, so when the object is twice as long, it pulls twice as hard. When distances become extreme, it always wins. Imagine a railway where the the far ends are moving apart from one another faster than the speed of light. It's either an infinitely stretchy railway, or it's breaking (probably long before we got to this point).

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by grkvlt on Thursday August 12, 2021 @10:26AM (#28156758)
so, how does this square with the statement claiming "[...] galaxies in the Local Group stay together" despite space-time expansion, since a galaxy seems rather larger than my proposed space-railway...

edit: also, thanks for the explanations - i think i need to learn more and/or head to physicsoverflow ;)

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by 542354234235 on Friday August 13, 2021 @01:39PM (#28171998)
Galaxies in the Local Group stay together because they are already gravitationally large enough and close enough to outweigh spacetime expansion. So, adding railways between them wouldn’t help or hurt. If you tried to add railways between galaxies that were not already gravitationally bound, they would keep moving apart and just tear the railway.

At the risk of adding yet another analogy. Imagine we have built an enormous balloon the size of a small moon. You and I are put on the balloon with our two vehicle and a steel winch. If they continue to blow up the balloon, things will get farther apart, but it isn’t going to tear the front times from the ear tires, and if we put the cars 1 meter apart, and connected the steel winch cable, it wouldn’t be an issue. At 1 meter, the balloon is expanding by a centimeter an hour. But if you drove 150 kilometers away from me, with the cable connected, and we tried to hold them together at the same distance, the balloon is moving at 25 meters per minute. To each of us, things would look and feel normal, but the pressure on the cable would snap it immediately. If you then decided to keep driving, there would be a point where you could never drive back to me because the distance between us as the balloon was expanding, would be more than the top speed of your car.

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by cygx on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @09:15AM (#28128391)
Thinking of spacetime as some sort of expanding fabric permeating every-day objects is not a good analogy in my opinion.

First, like any other gravitational effect, locally, spatial expansion would manifest as pseudo-forces that can be counter-acted by all the other forces that are far more relevant at human scale.

Second, the local effect of spatial expansion should be an indirect one: Friedmann cosmology - which is how we describe an isotropic, expanding universe - is a large-scale approximation. More realistic would be 'swiss-cheese' models, where spacetime in our neighbourhood can look vastly different from the Friedmann one, except that the spacetime patches need to properly fit together to yield the correct large-scale behaviour.

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by stavros on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:31AM (#28129312)
Ah I see, so this all happens at a quantum level that doesn't translate well to our intuition? That makes a certain amount of sense, thank you.
Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by cygx on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:50AM (#28129558)
This is still relativity, not quantum mechanics.

Point is, illustrative models and analogies are limited. Ideas like 'space itself expanding' or 'space flowing like a river and falling into a black hole like a waterfall' might help visualize some things, but can also lead to wrong ideas if taken too seriously.

Re:How far could a spaceship go if we never ran out of thrus... by stavros on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @10:53AM (#28129581)
> This is still relativity, not quantum mechanics.

Oh hmm, I see.

> but can also lead to wrong ideas if taken too seriously.

Yeah, and it's hard to know how far to take the analogy unless you're already familiar with the concept it's trying to describe, unfortunately.