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Re:Apple’s Mistake by mehrdada on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:38PM (#28120546)
"Hypocrisy is the practice of engaging in the same behavior or activity for which one criticizes another or the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform."

RMS is as close to the opposite of hypocrite as it gets. He definitely practices what he preaches to the degree that he used a slow Loongson when he couldn't get an Intel machine with free BIOS, for example.

He might not act diplomatic, be way outside social norms, or not people-please, but that does not make him a hypocrite.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by Osiris on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:06PM (#28120937)
Everything has software. If he follows his ideology that everything he uses be open source then he can't do anything except live off completely off grid without anything that has a semi conductor in it.

No electric meter at his house, no internet (even if his router is running open source, the ISP he's connected to certainly isn't), no transportation of any kind, no entertainment of any kind, no shopping of any kind (inventory management, cash registers, logistics). The equipment used to manufacture all the pieces of his precious decade old laptop was running proprietary software (not to mention all the small firmwares like wifi and Ethernet controllers).

You cannot escape it.

So, we should be pragmatic about it. We should push for it, but realize that it's impossible to live in society without interacting with closed source software.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by commoner on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:38PM (#28121370)
Richard Stallman's positions are actually more pragmatic than that. Here is how he describes them:

> I firmly refuse to install non-free software or tolerate its installed presence on my computer or on computers set up for me.

> However, if I am visiting somewhere and the machines available nearby happen to contain non-free software, through no doing of mine, I don't refuse to touch them. I will use them briefly for tasks such as browsing. This limited usage doesn't give my assent to the software's license, or make me responsible its being present in the computer, or make me the possessor of a copy of it, so I don't see an ethical obligation to refrain from this. Of course, I explain to the local people why they should migrate the machines to free software, but I don't push them hard, because annoying them is not the way to convince them.

> Likewise, I don't need to worry about what software is in a kiosk, pay phone, or ATM that I am using. I hope their owners migrate them to free software, for their sake, but there's no need for me to refuse to touch them until then. (I do consider what those machines and their owners might do with my personal data, but that's a different issue, which would arise just the same even if they did use free software. My response to that issue is to minimize those activities which give them any data about me.)

> That's my policy about using a machine once in a while. If I were to use it for an hour every day, that would no longer be "once in a while" — it would be regular use. At that point, I would start to feel the heavy hand of any nonfree software in that computer, and feel the duty to arrange to use a liberated computer instead.

> As for microwave ovens and other appliances, if updating software is not a normal part of use of the device, then it is not a computer. In that case, I think the user need not take cognizance of whether the device contains a processor and software, or is built some other way. However, if it has an "update firmware" button, that means installing different software is a normal part of use, so it is a computer.

https://stallman.org/stallman-computing.html

Re:Apple’s Mistake by dylan604 on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:25PM (#28121208)
>no transportation of any kind

How do you figure this. Cars did not always have computers in them, and you can still find older cars available.

>The equipment used to manufacture all the pieces of

Who actually cares about this? The consumer should only care about the thing produced.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by splitstud on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:10PM (#28123458)
People who can't formulate values from first principles.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by dylan604 on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:44PM (#28123682)
This isn't children sewing soccer balls with their teeth type of principles. This is a machine controlled by code the end user doesn't get access to building another thing the user actually buys that has no closed code in it. Who cares how the thing was built using whatever software to control the things to build the product? That software affects the end user in no way other than to produce the thing. That's like in an entirely different universe than running code on your computing device where you should be able to decide who/what/when/where type of questions. Telling a manufacturing company to do something regarding their software in their processes is out of this world insane. It is their software after all, so your freedom to run stuff your way should also reciprocate to them doing what they will with theirs.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by Osiris on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:09PM (#28120972)
He never talks about running open source CPU microcode. That's the ultimate attack vector.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by mehrdada on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:13PM (#28121041)
With all due respect, I don't believe you are familiar with RMS positions. I'd argue most people who have not followed him closely and haven't carefully listened to what his PoV is, have a very hand-wavy understanding of the nuances of what he stands for. The fact that you talk about open source is the tell. The term "open source" was deliberately invented to de-emphasize what RMS cares about in favor of a business-friendly justification for why it benefits businesses to share source code with others. Open Source philosophy is not about emphasizing the user rights and ownership over their computers.

And yes, he is concerned about microcode--he still uses a Core 2 Duo laptop that can work without the microcode blobs in firmware, as opposed to more modern processors, for that exact reason.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by jtbayly on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:58PM (#28120824)
He borrows people’s mobile phones and uses them.

Like the Amish.

Both condemn certain tech, but then use it. Both are not being honest, but hypocrites.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by jazzyjackson on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:10PM (#28120998)
I really don't see Amish as hypocritical when they hire a car or take the train. They are using the absolute minimum of tech that lets them get on with their life, I suppose Stallman is doing the same when he borrows a phone, otherwise avoiding them to the best of his ability.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by mehrdada on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:21PM (#28121165)
To portray RMS as "against tech" is a very misleading characterization of him (he is an OS developer after all). To judge someone as a hypocrite, you have to first understand (1) what they say, (2) how they act, and then (3) compare the two. I don't think he ever said "don't use tech". You are vastly mischaracterizing what his position is.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by ska on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:19PM (#28121854)
> To portray RMS as "against tech" is a very misleading characterization of him

It's also a poor characterization of the anabaptists, for that matter - they are not in general against technology but against the impacts of particular technology (nothing to do with RMS's concerns, theirs are about community).

For example, some anabaptist communities disallow cars, some allow them in limited ways, some allow them completely - but this is decided based not on a doctrine but on their communities evaluation on the impact of peoples housing spreading apart...

Re:Apple’s Mistake by jtbayly on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:28PM (#28123108)
Both condemn certain tech.

You are vastly mischaracterizing the few sentences I wrote.

In the case of RMS it is non-free software tech. In the case of the Amish it is many kinds of tech and depends (as the child comment mentions) on the community. One community I lived among they weren’t allowed to own phones, but they would borrow them all the time.

To call everybody to stop using non-free software phones while depending on thise same people to own them and let you borrow them in order to live is hypocritical. Sorry if that bothers you.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by danudey on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:22PM (#28121887)
He refuses to own a cell phone, because they're all closed-down, closed-source systems and that goes against his principles, but he's totally fine with using one when he needs to make a phone call. This comes across as startlingly performative.

I thought I remembered other instances, but none of them come to mind and obviously googling has turned up a ton of opinion pieces without a lot of actual substantative points made, so I'll leave it at that; not enough to argue that he is, by his nature, a hypocrite, but also not 100% pure to his principles in every circumstance.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by mehrdada on Monday August 09, 2021 @05:09PM (#28122348)
My point is you have to understand his principles first before calling him a hypocrite: in your cell phone example, the phone call he is making with someone else's phone is not depriving him of his freedom/privacy, but its owner's. He would likely advise and nudge the owner not to carry a cellphone for the owner's own benefit, in his capacity as an advocate, but if they have made the choice to carry one anyway, his use of someone else's cellphone for making a call is no different to him than utilizing a landline phone in his capacity as a user.

In fact, he has stated his principles/policies publicly and clearly, and someone posted it here as well. He never says "You are not supposed to use someone else's cellphone, but it's okay when I use it." That would make him a hypocrite.

Thus your example is a strawman here, with the implicit assumption that he has said "you ought not to use any cellphone" which he never said.

I think most misunderstandings of RMS come from the fact that people project on him what they think he would say and how he would act, not what he actually says and how he actually acts; while assuming he is merely some sort of activist engaging in civil disobedience and boycott, just trying to make a point and show the world a pure example of how to live. The way he should actually be thought of is he is fighting a war against people building proprietary software that, based on his theory, inevitably will lead to unjust power over users' lives through control over their devices. He is very pragmatic in that sense and willing to take any strategic advantage he can get in that fight, not deprive himself of that just to make a point. My understanding is at the beginning he used proprietary UNIX compilers to build GCC, for example.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by Frondo on Monday August 09, 2021 @07:45PM (#28123692)
> the phone call he is making with someone else's phone is not depriving him of his freedom/privacy, but its owner's.

Maybe he's not being hypocritical, but that position -- I will pragmatically use others' phones for my convenience, but I will not retain one myself -- just seems shitty. Not sure why, maybe because it's even less of a universally applicable tenet than "phones are bad, mmkay," it's just "I'll use the systems as convenient for me, no matter how others may suffer under them."

Re:Apple’s Mistake by Y_Y on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:54PM (#28122224)
He played Age of Empires II at a friend's house once. Is that enough?

I think he makes a pretty big tradeoff that nobody else would, without completely shooting himself in the foot. Even if he had a fully FOSS phone, the people he called probably wouldn't. He's drawn the line far enough out that I don't doubt his sincerity.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by markozivanovic on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:04PM (#28120903)
Saying that it's problematic to take RMS seriously because of the things you mentioned is in my opinion one of the problems that led us to the hellish things we're exposed to today.

It's the well dressed, well socially adjusted people with their silver tongues that convinced the masses that giving up privacy is in their interest. People like that are the people responsible for the shitshow we're now observing.

RMS is strongly opinionated, and without that kind of strong conviction, we would be far worse off. I do agree he's taking an extreme position, but when you're standing against giants with money and power, being extreme is sometimes the only way to stand a chance.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by jjav on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:44PM (#28121453)
> RMS is a hypocrite though

For whatever failing RMS has, hypocrite is obviously not one. There are few people on the world who are so consistent in their message and actions as RMS.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by lupire on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:21PM (#28121156)
HN loves throwing around accusations of "ad hominem", but dismissing someone's ideas on IP because he picks his toes is a quintessential ad hominem attack.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by tucosan on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:42PM (#28120602)
You make a grave accusation without even backing it up.

Are you sure you fully understand the definition of hypocrisy?