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Re:Apple’s Mistake by sillysaurusx on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:39PM (#28119787)
I’ve been thinking carefully about this situation.

I just don’t see the intrusion.

Firstly, you are syncing your photos to iCloud. It’s equivalent to developing your photos at an old timey film shop.

iCloud happens to have lots of security guarantees, much like the film shop.

But the moment you develop CP, all bets are off. I think most of us lead pampered, selfish lives. Perhaps this is a “think of the children” cry, and perhaps this has been used for many evils over time.

If Apple were to get their lists of hashes from China (a situation they’ve opened themselves up to in the future), then sure, that’s awful. Or if they were doing these checks and alerting law enforcement without iCloud sync, then that’s awful too.

But this doesn’t seem to be a slippery slope, yet. They are targeting a specific case: you uploading your photos, and your photos being of known child sexual abuse.

Yes, there are false positive photos in the database. Maybe there’s even a flower in there. But if you got flagged as a false positive, the moment law enforcement looks at your photos (which, remember, you’ve surrendered to iCloud), you sexually abusing a flower won’t cause any problems.

Or will it? Please, my mind is open. I’d love to change it.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by camillomiller on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:42PM (#28119841)
>But this doesn’t seem to be a slippery slope, either. Any photos you’re worried about can trivially circumvent the hashing system: adjust their brightness. Boom, done.

I've been briefed about it. Apple says explicitly that this is not the case. They mention that cropping, transforming, or even desaturating an image won't result in a hash that's so different from the matching one. The similarity will be high enough to detect the photo anyway. They don't seem eager to explain in detail how that actually works, though.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by danudey on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:55PM (#28120792)
The reason they don't explain how it works is that the CSAM hash matching is an algorithm from NCMEC, which was apparently originally designed by Microsoft.

If you want to learn about the algorithm/hashes, you have to, among other things, sign an NDA about it, so it's likely that Apple, legally, cannot go into detail about how it actually works.

Microsoft has a page on it here if you're interested: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/photodna

For obvious reasons, they don't go into a whole lot of detail.

I've learned a lot about how the process works from this blog post: https://hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Ba...

He gets a few facts about Apple's approach wrong, but it's an incredibly interesting read.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by migueldeicaza on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:34PM (#28121317)
Apple designed a new system, which is different than PhotoDNA - they call it neural hash, and the specifics are not disclosed.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by hariboapfel on Tuesday August 10, 2021 @03:08AM (#28125909)
crosschecking hashes is only possible if they use the „same“ implemantation for the hashes. it would be safe to assume that the implementation/algorythm is the same regardless of being called photodna/neuralhash.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by sillysaurusx on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:46PM (#28119899)
Sorry, I edited that part out one minute after commenting. I realized it was a weakness in the argument.

Thank you for pointing that out though. I had no idea.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by wobblykiwi on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:41PM (#28119813)
This is about Apple scanning the pictures on your phone, not the pictures that have been synced to iCloud.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by camillomiller on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:44PM (#28119859)
A good point to keep in mind, there is no "scanning". There is a hashing, then a check of the hashes - not the pictures - and if a hash matches the on-device NCMEC hashes list a "security voucher" is generated. Said voucher will be uploaded to iCloud photos along with the picture it refers to, without anyone in the chain being able to know that it happened.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by sillysaurusx on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:51PM (#28119955)
Do they do device local scanning for this purpose? Apple’s original announcement said that it was to give law enforcement answers about photos synced to iCloud.

If so, then I’ll immediately change my mind and join the protest. Device local scanning is equivalent to someone checking your personal possessions at your home.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by wobblykiwi on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:54PM (#28120003)
Yes, you can find more information here: https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

From the overview:

> Apple’s method of detecting known CSAM is designed with user privacy in mind. Instead of scanning images in the cloud, the system performs on-device matching using a database of known CSAM image hashes provided by NCMEC and other child-safety organizations. Apple further transforms this database into an unreadable set of hashes, which is securely stored on users’ devices.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by sillysaurusx on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:58PM (#28120040)
Yes, but my understanding was that they do this for iCloud-synced photos.

If iCloud is off, do they still do this? Your quote actually doesn’t contradict that, which is my main hangup. If you turn on iCloud, you forfeit certain expectations.

I’ll read through it carefully now.

EDIT: It was the very first sentence of the intro:

> CSAM Detection enables Apple to accurately identify and report iCloud users who store known Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) in their iCloud Photos accounts.

I don’t get it. It’s their platform. Other image platforms do this matching. Old film shops used to do this matching. Why is this evil?

Re:Apple’s Mistake by idle_zealot on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:53PM (#28120753)
The sticking point is that the matching happens on-device, not on their servers. Sure, it only happens for photos that will be synced, but it’s still your device doing the matching and snitching.

There’s also the fact that the “only scans local photos marked for upload to iCloud” is a technically thin barrier. A switch that could very easily and quietly be flipped in the future.

Re:Apple’s Mistake by dmitrygr on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:49PM (#28120703)
If you scan in the cloud, photos not synced to the cloud are 100% not going to be scanned - they are JUST NOT THERE. If you can on device, you are one "if(" condition away from "Accidentally "scanning other photos. See the issue now?
Re:Apple’s Mistake by danudey on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:59PM (#28120840)
Do you have any general objection to client software scanning content it uploads before it uploads it, rather than afterwards? Scanning it on your phone means that unencrypted versions of your data don't have to leave your phone, which IMHO gives more privacy than any other option.

Do you have an objection even though it means that the content (in a form readable by anyone else) never leaves your device? Would it be preferable if Apple scanned files that were synced to iCloud, but no longer encrypted them in transit/at rest, or encrypted them in a way that they are able to decrypt?

Re:Apple’s Mistake by 0x000000001 on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:45PM (#28119891)
they already scan all the images on your phone. that's how i can search for "dog" or "flowers" and find results in my photo library.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by idle_zealot on Monday August 09, 2021 @02:55PM (#28120779)
Local scanning/indexing is fine. It’s reporting the results of the scan to Apple that people have a problem with.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by danudey on Monday August 09, 2021 @03:01PM (#28120871)
I'm not sure that's true. A lot of people seem to have less of a problem with Apple scanning for CSAM and more of a problem that they're doing it on the phone (and looking for specific images, I guess?).
Re:Apple’s Mistake by idle_zealot on Monday August 09, 2021 @06:03PM (#28122885)
It’s the fact that the phone is scanning your images and relaying the results to Apple that’s the issue. If this feature were just an extension of existing on-device scanning and stayed on the device, perhaps informing the owner “Hey, it appears a few of your images may be CSAM. Would you like to review them?” then I don’t think people would be very upset.
Re:Apple’s Mistake by x2r on Monday August 09, 2021 @04:13PM (#28121782)
Apple used to be able to say 'we don't have that capability' if, for example, a Turkish judge ordered them to scan phones for a certain picture of Erdogan. What are they going to say now?