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Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:59AM (#28105815)
I can't believe this is actually a big issue if that's the best example they can come up with.

Most of the problems could be traced to simplified models they claim, yet the two they actually mention in detail clearly did not. And they make no attempt to quantify the contribution (in terms of cost Vs energy waste) of the ones that do.

It seems highly unlikely that they'll rival having your heat on too high and the windows open to vent the heat.

In particular, a school in a valley in the UK having its lights on doesn't on really seem like a big deal as long as they're using LED lights. Attempting to harness natural light in this type of building sounds like a feel-good notion that can't possibly compete with decent led lighting run from a renewable grid.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by rini17 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:33AM (#28105974)
You dismiss is as mere feel-good notion, I say it's prevention of seasonal depression.

I live in a house with huge southeastern window... and when there's occassional clear winter morning, the light and later the warmth, that's...glorious! No idea how could I replicate that with LEDs, would be probably pretty expensive.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by robbedpeter on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:08AM (#28106126)
Having gone down the indoor hydroponics/aeroponics rabbit hole, I find it likely that you could buy leds with the exact frequency or spread of light needed to counter the light perception issue - seasonal depression is probably a complex of deficiencies, though, so light alone probably wouldn't be sufficient. Some combination of atmosphere, temperature differential and duration, physical activity, and recurrence could all come into play. And vitamin d and possibly other nutrient deficits depending on seasonal food in your market.

If it was as simple as light exposure, leds on glasses would be an easy cheap fix - wear light therapy glasses x minutes a day while you work or listen to podcasts, etc.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by rini17 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:09AM (#28106433)
It is sometimes as simple as not having tinted windows :)
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by oldsecondhand on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:26AM (#28106523)
But then you can't read computer screens and annoy people with the sun blinding them.
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by rini17 on Sunday August 08, 2021 @11:24AM (#28107388)
It's possible that in few years we'll switch to e-ink anyway. But we'll stuck with architecture based on minimising natural light "annoyance" for a very long time.
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by namibj on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:37AM (#28106245)
Interestingly, solar panels and LEDs are more efficient than plants directly in the sun, due to the spectrum inefficiency of the green light absorbing dye.
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by bregma on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:47AM (#28106300)
Photosynthesis uses energy in the red part of the visible spectrum. That's why they look green. They do not absorb the green light, they reflect it.

Plants store their solar energy in a hydrogen-carbon bond for storage. To compare a plant with a solar panel and LED you need to also include the storage technology, which is usually batteries. Because plants do not as a rule glow brightly, a more apt comparison would involve, say, a locomotion system. Comparing the efficiency of, perhaps, a car that drives at night powered by a solar/battery system vs. a plant/combustion system. It would be an interesting experiement.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by namibj on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:28AM (#28106539)
No, the comparison is between a glass roof and a solar roof with LEDs underneath.

And yes, I know the dye doesn't absorb green. It's still a green dye; last I checked we name dyes by their reflected color.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by cycomanic on Sunday August 08, 2021 @12:15PM (#28107767)
I think your post and the reply of the previous poster is a perfect example of why comma's are important.

You meant a "green, light-absorbing dye" (using hyphens to make the distinction clearer), the previous poster understood "a green-light absorbing dye".

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by robbedpeter on Sunday August 08, 2021 @07:13PM (#28111072)
Let's eat grandma!
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by jaggederest on Sunday August 08, 2021 @08:19AM (#28106164)
> Attempting to harness natural light in this type of building sounds like a feel-good notion that can't possibly compete with decent led lighting run from a renewable grid.

Most indoor lighting is below 1000 lux. Bright daylight without direct sun is 10000 lux. There's no comparison between proper daylighting and almost any reasonable amount of indoor lighting. This is why it's very difficult to see things even on a very high luminance screen like a Macbook Pro outdoors during daylight.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:00AM (#28106368)
Are you suggesting that being unable to read a computer screen is some kind of desireable quality in a classroom setting?

I didn't mean compete in terms of max lux output, though if they actually wanted to do that for whatever odd reason (film studio? indoor weed farming?), the basic tech probably could as well.

I meant effective task lighting for multiple people and multiple tasks across seasons in a large building with multiple very similar large rooms that have windows in different places but usually along one wall only (in a valley, in a cloudy country relatively far from the equator).

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by jaggederest on Sunday August 08, 2021 @09:51AM (#28106689)
No, I'm saying that there's no reasonable lighting system that can approximate even "cloudy country far from the equator" brightness that comes through windows. So if they set the windows up wrong, you can't patch over it with LEDs. Especially for children, whose visual cortexes are still developing, which requires bright light and high contrast.
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by ZeroGravitas on Sunday August 08, 2021 @10:08AM (#28106806)
You still seem to be suggesting that a) a very large amount of light is required in a classroom setting and, b) it is beyond our current technology to achieve this level of light via LED lighting without sunlight provided by windows.

Which on the face of it, seems totally absurd. Things such as Night School, and schools/offices near the poles for example, exist. Is there something more specific that you're actually saying?

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by postoak on Sunday August 08, 2021 @12:21PM (#28107822)
I'm guessing they aren't saying the light is necessary for school/learning, but that it is unknown whether it is needed for human development. Most of the time mammals and humans evolved they probably spent a substantial amount of time outdoors and if kids spend the majority of the day without sufficient light it could effect their development. Of course there probably isn't sufficient research to know, but it seems pretty clear that sunlight exposure affects sleep and mood which are pretty important for the brain to function well.
Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by jaggederest on Sunday August 08, 2021 @06:16PM (#28110643)
https://parentingscience.com/kids-need-daylight/

Especially children need significant time spent in bright daylight in order to develop normally. It's not beyond our technology, but nobody actually does it.

Re:Why Don’t Green Buildings Live Up to Hype on Energy Effic... by Zababa on Sunday August 08, 2021 @01:39PM (#28108498)
> In particular, a school in a valley in the UK having its lights on doesn't on really seem like a big deal as long as they're using LED lights. Attempting to harness natural light in this type of building sounds like a feel-good notion that can't possibly compete with decent led lighting run from a renewable grid.

Maybe that's just me, but natural light is way better for my mental health than artificial light. Being forced to depend on artificial light makes me feel like I'm in a basement, which I don't like at all.