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Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by gpm on Friday August 06, 2021 @10:47PM (#28095248)
With you up to here, but this is jumping the shark

> I bet you, after the next election in the US your device will be reporting you for spreading far right or deep state lies, depending on who wins.

The US is becoming less stable, sure [1], but there is still a very strong culture of free speech, particularly political speech. I put the odds that your device will be reporting on that within 4 years as approximately 0. The extent that you see any interference with speech today is corporations choosing not to repeat certain speech to the public. Not them even looking to scan collections of files about it, not them reporting it to the government, and the government certainly wouldn't be interested if they tried.

The odds that it's reporting other crimes than child porn though, say, copyright infringement. That strikes me as not-so-low.

[1] I agree with this so much that it's part of why I just quit a job that would have required me to move to the US.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by esyir on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:21PM (#28095394)
>but there is still a very strong culture of free speech

In my opinion, that culture has been rapidly dying, chipped away by a very sizable and growing chunk that doesn't value it at all, seeing it only as a legal technicality to be sidestepped.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by bigyikes on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:56PM (#28095554)
I find this varies greatly depending on location. Living in California, I was convinced of the same. Living in Texas now, I’m more optimistic.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by esyir on Saturday August 07, 2021 @02:16AM (#28096209)
I'm not nearly as happy to hear that as you might think. California is currently the heart of power of the US tech industry, which means they hold outsized power over the rest of the US and the world. That means illiberal values growing there are going to have similarly outsized effects
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by goldenkey on Saturday August 07, 2021 @02:58AM (#28096410)
I think you mean liberal values. The paradox of the left includes censorship, gun control, etc..
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by colordrops on Saturday August 07, 2021 @03:12AM (#28096473)
I think your mean liberal as in tribe, and gp means liberal as in values.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by jacoblambda on Saturday August 07, 2021 @04:48AM (#28096998)
FYI Illiberal values aka non-liberal values (clarifying because the I is hard to read) use the word liberal in the traditional sense.

Liberal values are liberty/freedom, consent of the governed, and equality before the law. All other liberal values build off of these three as a base. This implies that Non-liberal (or illiberal) values are the opposition of liberal values through censorship, gun control, etc like you mentioned.

Liberals in the modern US political sense refers to Neo-liberals. Neo-liberal and liberal are two very different things which is why the term liberal value doesn't necessarily correspond to neo-liberal beliefs.

Additionally, "the left" by and large does not support neo-liberalism. "The left" is violently against the aforementioned censorship, gun control, etc. Reading any socialist or communist literature will make this abundantly clear.

Examples:

- George Orwell on the Right to bear Arms: "The totalitarian states can do great things, but there is one thing they cannot do, they cannot give the factory worker a rifle and tell him to take it home and keep it in his bedroom. That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see it stays there."

- George Orwell on Freedom of Speech: "Threats to freedom of speech, writing and action, though often trivial in isolation, are cumulative in their effect and, unless checked, lead to a general disrespect for the rights of the citizen."

- Karl Marx on the Right to bear Arms: "Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"

- Karl Marx on Freedom of Speech: "The absence of freedom of the press makes all other freedoms illusory. One form of freedom governs another just as one limb of the body does another. Whenever a particular freedom is put in question, freedom in general is put in question"

- Karl Marx on Freedom of Speech: "Censorship has outlived its time; where it still exists, it will be regarded as a hateful constraint which prohibits what is openly said from being written"

- Karl Marx on Freedom of Speech: "You cannot enjoy the advantages of a free press without putting up with its inconveniences. You cannot pluck the rose without its thorns!"

If you want I can dig up more quotes but those are the ones that were easy to fetch and any more risks turning this into even more of a wall of text.

My point being, your issues with "the left" are misdirected and are better focused towards Neo-liberalism and/or Neo-conservatism. "The left" does and has always been one of the primary guardians of liberal ideology. Hell "the left" is where a significant portion of the liberal ideology that the United States is founded on originated from.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by mannerheim on Saturday August 07, 2021 @08:11AM (#28098001)
All the experience the Chinese people have accumulated through several decades teaches us to enforce the people's democratic dictatorship, that is, to deprive the reactionaries of the right to speak and let the people alone have that right.

- Mao Zedong

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by goldenkey on Saturday August 07, 2021 @05:59AM (#28097328)
Those are great but the left in its current form pushes for larger and larger government. I believe that large government is incompatible with freedom. A hammer will always find a nail given enough time for bad actors to exploit the search space.

Marxism prescribes the atrophy of the state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withering_away_of_the_state

The left as it stands in its current dominant form, is a hypocrisy of incompatibles.

True liberalism as you describe it, doesn't exist in any first world country. It's been bundled into larger and larger government creep which inevitably tramples on individual rights.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by mrtksn on Saturday August 07, 2021 @06:11AM (#28097382)
The confusion seems to arise from Americans calling the democrats "the left". It's like fighting over which brand of chips is the best, Lays or Pringles.

A tip: These are not chips.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by sobriquet9 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @08:33AM (#28098130)
Karl Marx quote on the right to keep and bear arms only applies to the proletariat. If you are a programmer and own the means of production (your laptop), you are not proletariat. All socialist and communist countries have strict gun control.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by bccdee on Saturday August 07, 2021 @10:25AM (#28098810)
Proletarians make a living off of wage labour. The Bourgeois make enough to live on off of investments in capital.

Owning a laptop is perhaps a very tiny investment in capital, arguably, but it certainly won't provide enough passive income to replace your job.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by goldenkey on Saturday August 07, 2021 @11:08AM (#28099113)
If you own AWS or GCP or Azure is a better example of owning means of production. A laptop cannot make you enough money to live by means of renting it out.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by jacoblambda on Thursday August 12, 2021 @01:33AM (#28152355)
If you work for a living without owning the means of production and receiving the fruits of your labour, you are part of the proletariat.

If you own the means of production and receive the full fruits of your labour, you are part of the bourgeoisie.

Self employed programmers are bourgeoisie, employed ones are not. And of those that are part of the bourgeoisie, there are levels and not all of them are bad (even in the scope of socialist theory).

- The petite bourgeoisie are your small self employed shopkeepers, artisans, and tradesmen. These are the people who live by their own means and without exploiting anyone else's labour. Rising the proletariat to this level is the entire point of socialism.

- The moyenne bourgeoisie maintain largely the same lifestyle as the petite bourgeoisie but with strong financial establishment. They are effectively the upper end of the petite bourgeoisie and whether they are considered part of the problem or part of the end goal depends almost entirely on whether they are supported solely by their own labour or if they are unduly exploiting the labour of others. This class may lend money in some capacity however normally if they are doing so, they are doing it collectively.

- The grand bourgeoisie are largely where the problems with the bourgeoisie begin. These people have an established financial status from a few generations of wealth. This class is the one running larger businesses and their wealth is almost entirely derived from the work of others rather than their own.

- The haute bourgeoisie are the "true" bourgeoisie. You can only make it to this class through generations of wealth aggregation (unless you ride an industrial revolution) and once you are here, it is almost impossible to lose your financial status regardless of spending or financial failings. These are the eternally rich and their existence is only sustained by exploiting the labour of others.

Socialist theory considers the petite and moyenne bourgeoisie to be the "end goal" for society. They are nearly entirely sustained by their own labour and may use their excess funds to invest in the community (normally with some expectation of return but not any life sustaining amount). Marx warned that through the natural progression of capitalist society, these classes (primarily the petite but also the moyenne in some capacity) would wither while the wealth collected in the hands of the grand and haute bourgeoisie.

---

Additionally, many socialist and communist nations have strict gun control not because they are socialist or communist, but because they are authoritarian. Gun control is a sign of authoritarianism more than anything else and any nation that falls towards it is going to see the population disarmed.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by dannyw on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:39PM (#28095475)
Did you literally not see a former president effectively get silenced in the public sphere by 3 corporations?

How can you seriously believe that these corporations (who are not subject to the first amendment, and cannot be challenged in court) won't extend and abuse this technology to tackle "domestic extremism" but broadly covering political views?

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by macintux on Saturday August 07, 2021 @12:28AM (#28095678)
> a former president effectively get silenced in the public sphere

It's laughable that a man who can call a press conference at a moment's notice and get news coverage for anything he says can be "silenced" because private companies no longer choose to promote his garbage.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by Decker87 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @12:34AM (#28095700)
He's been completely silenced. If you don't believe me, you can hear it from him next week when he's on the largest news network talking about being silenced.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by visarga on Saturday August 07, 2021 @12:43AM (#28095752)
Yes, because we all trust him at this point /s
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by gpm on Saturday August 07, 2021 @09:45AM (#28098540)
I'm pretty sure the person you are replying to was being sarcastic, "he's so silenced that he can tell you about it".
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by l33t2328 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @07:29AM (#28097737)
You don’t have to believe him; it’s clear on the face of it. Trump often spoke directly to the voters on Twitter and Youtube. That’s gone now.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by wpietri on Saturday August 07, 2021 @01:22PM (#28100218)
Trump can still speak directly to the voters who are interested. It turns out not very many are interested. E.g.: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/02/trump-blog-page-shuts-down-f...

Even Fox has stopped running his events: https://deadline.com/2021/06/donald-trump-rally-networks-ski...

The largest pro-Trump network has seen major declines in ratings: https://www.thewrap.com/newsmax-fox-news-six-months-ratings/

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by l33t2328 on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:12PM (#28119456)
It’s much harder now because he’s been effectively banned from every relevant “public square”.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by wpietri on Friday August 13, 2021 @03:17PM (#28173254)
That is a fascinating nationalization of private space that did not exist 15 years ago. Was every politician prior to Twitter's ascendance effectively banned from communicating with the public?
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by bzha on Saturday August 07, 2021 @12:47AM (#28095770)
This is akin to saying rich people have lots of money, so why not steal from them.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by andy_ppp on Saturday August 07, 2021 @12:53AM (#28095808)
Well, I prefer to think of this as redistribution rather than theft. When the government pass laws to tax rich people more I think that’s good!
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by wpietri on Saturday August 07, 2021 @01:02PM (#28100083)
Those companies can definitely be challenged in courts. But they also have rights, including things like freedom of speech and freedom of association, which is why they win when challenged on this. Why do you think a former president and claimed billionaire should have special rights to their property?
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by feanaro on Saturday August 07, 2021 @03:46AM (#28096677)
> but there is still a very strong culture of free speech, particularly political speech.

Free speech didn't seem so important recently when the SJW crowd started mandating to censor certain words because they're offensive.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by wpietri on Saturday August 07, 2021 @01:28PM (#28100256)
Free speech doesn't mean the speaker is immune from criticism or social consequences. If I call you a bunch of offensive names here, I'll get downvoted for sure. The comment might be hidden from most. I might get shadowbanned or totally banned, too.

That was true of private spaces long before HN existed. If you're a jerk at a party, you might get thrown out. I'm sure that's been true as long as there have been parties.

The only thing "the SJW crowd" has changed is which words are now seen as offensive.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by feanaro on Saturday August 07, 2021 @05:28PM (#28101994)
> The only thing "the SJW crowd" has changed is which words are now seen as offensive.

Well, that, and also bullying thousands of well-meaning projects into doing silly renamings they didn't want or need to spend energy on. Introducing thousands of silly little bugs and problems downstream, wasting thousands of productive hours.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by wpietri on Monday August 09, 2021 @01:38AM (#28113063)
Even if that were the case, which I'm skeptical of, you're missing the other side of the productivity question. One of the major shifts in acceptable language relates to inclusion, especially in regards to gender and race. Given open source's ongoing diversity problem [1], you have to reckon with all the labor lost from excluding people.

[1] e.g.: https://www.wired.com/2017/06/diversity-open-source-even-wor...

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by efitz on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:02PM (#28095311)
Apple has a shitty record wrt free speech. Apple hates free speech. Apple likes “curation”. They canned Parler in a heartbeat; they also police the App Store for anything naughty.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by gpm on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:22PM (#28095399)
Canning Parler is Apple choosing not to advertise and send you an app they don't like, i.e. it's Apple exercising it's own right to free speech. Agree or disagree with it, it's categorically different from Apple spying on what the files you have are saying (not even to or via Apple) and reporting it to the government.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by wyager on Friday August 06, 2021 @11:40PM (#28095478)
Apple also disallows you from installing things without going through them, so “choosing not to advertise and send” has a lot more significance than your wording implies.

It’s not like they have a curated App Store for apps they like; there’s literally no other way to add software to the device.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by gpm on Saturday August 07, 2021 @09:48AM (#28098559)
Right, but the fallout that prevents you from installing it is an incidental consequence of Apple choosing not to promote it and Apple choosing to use it's monopoly on app distribution as an income channel.

Speech not happening because Apple didn't go out of it's way for it to create a route for it to happen without Apple being involved, isn't really that shocking or similar to Apple scanning private files. (Apple being allowed to prevent you from installing what you want on your phone is shocking from an anti-trust perspective, but not from a speech perspective).

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by l33t2328 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @07:25AM (#28097710)
I don’t see how the US is becoming “less stable” in any meaningful sense. Can you elaborate?
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by gpm on Saturday August 07, 2021 @10:08AM (#28098698)
Both sides of the political spectrum think the other side is stupid, and evil. The gap between the two sides is getting bigger. Politicians and people (especially on the right, but to some extent on the left) are increasingly willing to cheat to remain in power.

If you want some concrete examples:

- Trump's attempted coup, the range of support it received, the lack of condemnation it received.

- Law's allowing things like running over protestors

- Law's with the transparent goal of suppressing voters

- Widespread support (not unjustified IMO) for stacking the supreme court

- Police refusing to enforce certain laws as a political stance (not because they legitimately think they're unlawful, just that they don't like them)

- (Justified) lack of trust in the police quickly trending higher

- (Justified?) lack of trust in the military to responsibly use tools you give it, and support for a functional military

- (Justified?) lack of faith in the border guards and the ability to pass reasonable immigration laws, to the point where many people are instead advocating for just not controlling the southern border.

Generally these (and more) all speak towards the institutions that make the US a functional country failing. The institutions that make the rules for the country are losing credibility, the forces that enforce the rules are losing credibility. Neither of those are things that a country can survive forever.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by l33t2328 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @03:20PM (#28101106)
Calling what Trump did an attempted coup is hyperbole beyond belief.

The support for packing the supreme court is mostly at the fringes of the party, and there’s always been some support.

There are almost no laws with any kind of support that have transparent goals of suppressing voters. Election security laws are clearly necessary after the doubt the democrats had it was secure in 2016, and the doubts the republicans had in 2020.

Laws absolving drivers of hitting protesters don’t exist. Laws absolving drivers of driving through violent rioters do, and such laws are necessary. I saw a a riot with my own eyes where a half dozen cars were flipped and destroyed, and anyone trying to drive through the intersection had people jumping on their car and smashing the windows. These laws are good.

Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by jeromegv on Saturday August 07, 2021 @10:24AM (#28098804)
An attack on the capitol on January 6. A former president that spent weeks trying to delegitimize the election, trying to get people fired when they were just following the process to ratify the election, etc.
Re:The Problem with Perceptual Hashes by l33t2328 on Saturday August 07, 2021 @03:13PM (#28101059)
I’m struggling to see how a few people shitting on Pelosi’s desk and stealing a podium really changed the nature of American stability.