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Re:What happened to all the female developers? by diolpah on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @12:05PM (#2807959)
A cursory look at the graph indicates that the only place women suffered was on their own code. Resume, phone skills, interpersonal skills, all great.
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by ovi256 on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @12:45PM (#2808202)
You're getting downvoted, no doubt because the thing you remarked is a thing-you-can't-say. I completely missed it myself, but it's very telling: code screen eliminates women in a 28:5 (5.6) ratio, compared to men's 26:10 (2.6). A classic rebuttal is that the test could be biased.

Reducing complex phenomena to one factor so that they can be digested on a 30-second news segment or put into soundbites by any politician is an unwelcome consequence of modern media. I have no doubt many factors cause demographic changes such as the one discussed. Testing for the weight of each factor needs scientific work and controlled experiments which are pretty much impossible to carry out, unfortunately. Until then, things will be talked and written about, but remember, it's all fluff. Someday, some historian will even write the definitive history of women in early computer science, and I have no doubt his conclusions will be as disputed as the fall of the Roman empire is today.

But these discussions will still serve as vehicles for political agendas, most of which will be of the variety "more people should be like me".

Re:What happened to all the female developers? by dpritchett on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @02:41PM (#2808814)
Tiny sample size aside, a given woman is nearly four times as likely as a given man to receive an internship offer from Fog Creek provided both have reached the phone interview stage. From there, women are twice as likely to decline Fog Creek's offer, presumably due to having more & better internship options.

Survival rate by stage:

  Submitted resume gets reviewed:
      1.05 : 1 in favor of women.

  Reviewed resume gets a code review:
      1.02 : 1 in favor of women.

  Reviewed code gets a phone interview:
         1 : 1.96 in favor of men.

  Completed phone interview leads to an in-person interview:
      1.31 : 1 in favor of women.

  Completed interview leads to an offer:
      2.92 : 1 in favor of women.

  Candidate declines offer:
         2 : 1 in favor of women.
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by gaius on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @02:23PM (#2808726)
How on Earth can you gender-bias a coding test!? The compiler doesn't know if you're a boy or a girl!
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by jameshart on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @04:51PM (#2809438)
Easy - choose a domain where pre-knowledge is gender-biased: "Design a web application to manage a fantasy football league", "Implement a D&D character generator", "Implement an optimal queueing strategy to solve the urinal-allocation problem (http://blog.xkcd.com/2009/09/02/urinal-protocol-vulnerabilit... ).

Not suggesting that's what fogcreek do, of course, but just to demonstrate that a coding test could easily have a gender bias - or a cultural one, for that matter.

Re:What happened to all the female developers? by yummyfajitas on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @09:26PM (#2810294)
If a person of any gender can't turn urinal allocation into selecting a subset of range(0,N) of maximal cardinality subject to the constraint that neighboring integers are excluded (assuming my quick skim of the problem didn't gloss anything over), they are a bad developer.

Lots of times you need to develop stuff without domain knowledge. My startup targets women's fashion, which I know very little about. If I were to give up or fail because the problem involves plackets and silhouettes, I'd have already quit and gone back to NJ.

Re:What happened to all the female developers? by gaius on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @05:40PM (#2809598)
Xkcd is wrong about that as it depends whether the man is a huncher or an arcer. I suppose you're right, only a man would know that. But Joel is well known for Fizzbuzz.
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by Joeboy on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @02:40PM (#2808807)
I doubt the compiler is responsible for assessing the test. I also doubt that gender-bias on the part of the assessor is the reason for the disparity though (assuming the disparity in this small sample is representative anyway).
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by sequoia on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @12:47PM (#2808223)
diolpah is referring to this graph, btw: http://blog.fogcreek.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Gender-N...

@diolpah it is a very small sample, it probably carries no scientific relevance. It is, however, the author's fault for using it, not yours. Your analysis looks correct as far as the tiny dataset presented is concerned.

EDIT: "Because we can’t ask applicants their gender, we guessed based on first names." Nevermind. The author is a jackass for even including these data in the first place, it's as good as meaningless, even within that small cohort. Alex, Ashley, Sam, Pat, Lindsey, Jessie, any hippy name (see: my name), Quinn, Casey, Rowan... crap pseudoscience is crap.

Re:What happened to all the female developers? by olliesaunders on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @07:07PM (#2809879)
Anyone would be down-voted for saying this. Thank you for doing us the service of saying it.
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by diolpah on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @12:28PM (#2808105)
The downvotes are appreciated. Where am I wrong?
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by groby_b on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @03:40PM (#2809144)
You're not wrong, but it's a touchy subject. Gender issues are always tinged with "discrimination" overtones.

And, just to be clear, there is _plenty_ of discrimination and bias against women. But that shouldn't detract from the fact that you're pointing out a major outlier in their data.

Unfortunately, without knowing the test, it's hard to even guess what happened there. Is it focusing on syntactic vs. semantical correctness? Does it require deep specialist knowledge, or broad generalist knowledge? How is it graded?

Or is it simply a function of the tiny sample size?

Without pointing out what you conclude from that data, people will infer what you concluded. And since it's a loaded subject, they will often arrive at "what a misogynist jerk" without ever knowing what you were trying to say.

Corollary: When pointing out data on a loaded subject, it might be beneficial to point out what you conclude, and why. At least that way, only one of the two factions can flame you ;)

(Disclaimer: I am a woman, so I obviously disagree with the "women can't code theory". I'd still love to find out _why_ women are filtered out by that test so disproportionately, simply because it might hold clues as to why women are not interested in CS)

Re:What happened to all the female developers? by known on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @12:49PM (#2808237)
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." --Oscar Wilde
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by robryan on Wednesday July 27, 2011 @12:54AM (#2810826)
I think more than anything you point out that the sample size is to small to really take anything meaningful from it.
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by cjzhang on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @12:45PM (#2808205)
Why didn't you just say "women can't code?"

Also, the sample size is crap and the deviation is crap relative to the sample size, so you can't make very many truly meaningful observations from it.

Re:What happened to all the female developers? by gsmaverick on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @02:12PM (#2808674)
That's what you wanted him to say so you could attack him. He was merely stating an observation of the given data in an unbiased manner.
Re:What happened to all the female developers? by sliverstorm on Tuesday July 26, 2011 @08:17PM (#2810094)
diolpah, my grandparent here is why you were downvoted. Nowadays, the atmosphere around anything related to gender is super-charged, and people are hyper-super-extra-sensitive to anything that could even slightly be construed as debasing towards women, so even something as simple as observing measured data sounds to them like overt sexism.