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Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by void_mint on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:17PM (#28056815)
> If your job in SFO can be done from Sacramento or Portland, why can’t it be done from Manila? Or Warsaw?

In theory, nothing. In practice, a dramatic reduction in quality.

> And don’t fool yourself, that developer in Colombia is just as talented but can work for half the cost.

Again in theory, yes. In practice, not usually.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by sneak on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:01AM (#28057131)
> In theory, nothing. In practice, a dramatic reduction in quality.

There are talented and smart people in every country.

There are also tons of low quality, low experience, cheap devs in the US, just like the countries you seem to be maligning.

This really seems like simple racism to me.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by void_mint on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:42AM (#28057371)
> There are talented and smart people in every country.

Yep. Nowhere did I dispute this.

> There are also tons of low quality, low experience, cheap devs in the US, just like the countries you seem to be maligning.

Yep. Nowhere did I dispute this.

> This really seems like simple racism to me.

This is speaking from lots of experiencing working with and managing outsourced dev labor. I would say that your take seems intellectually lazy to me. Hiring is insanely hard, and adding timezones and language/culture hurdles only makes it harder.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by addicted on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @06:38AM (#28059436)
The problem is that your experience is based on a pre pandemic WFH experience.

In the past the outsourced teams were clearly second class teams behind the primary local teams.

That won’t be the case if the entire company is remote first.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by void_mint on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @01:37PM (#28063877)
You're focused very hard on the WFH part, which is actually totally irrelevant to me. When someone's offshore, you don't even really think about the context from which they're working. They could've been in an office, or they could've been in a bed, I didn't know/didn't care.

> In the past the outsourced teams were clearly second class teams behind the primary local teams.

Outsourced teams were second class because of the frequency they didn't deliver/delivered something poorly/needed almost full-time guidance and direction. I would put outsourced help in a similar category to taking on a Junior dev, fwiw. It has its place, but you can't get mad at someone put in a position that was never meant to succeed if they end up failing.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by smorgusofborg on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @02:11PM (#28064285)
From what I've seen 80% of local workers end up being somewhere between marginal and abysmal, so much so that many companies actually run on having internal workers do whatever is fun based on the work of niche consultants.

The difference I see in results is that a remote worker might trigger regrets for not really giving them a winable situation but a local internal worker triggers empathy even if they became your new lower bound on lazy. This leads some people to fix some local workers and almost all people to give them 3-5 years to improve while hiring additional people that shouldn't be needed.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by void_mint on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:04PM (#28064872)
> From what I've seen 80% of local workers end up being somewhere between marginal and abysmal,

Yep.

> The difference I see in results is that a remote worker might trigger regrets for not really giving them a winable situation but a local internal worker triggers empathy even if they became your new lower bound on lazy. This leads some people to fix some local workers and almost all people to give them 3-5 years to improve while hiring additional people that shouldn't be needed.

I again think it's a super complex problem. I think local workers have the luxury of tight feedback loops. When working with offshore labor, you have to basically build in several extra days to get what you want. For an in-office (or even in-timezone) worker, you can get regular updates in real time, so you have more opportunities to jump in if something isn't going correctly. For offshore, you give them a task and then check back in tomorrow. Usually, what they delivered wasn't close to what you asked for, but since they're offline when you're reviewing, you just have to again write what you want and send it back over the wall (where they will update what they did, but again not deliver what you wanted). It takes so much longer.

The contrast between that and non-offshore-remote is still night and day. You don't have to plan so many extra cycles for converting whatever they gave you to whatever you wanted. And the timezones again are just so much easier to work with.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by bluefirebrand on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:12PM (#28062736)
> In the past the outsourced teams were clearly second class teams behind the primary local teams.

> That won’t be the case if the entire company is remote first

This assumption is based on the idea that outsourced teams were the second class teams because they were remote.

They weren't. They were second class teams because they were outsourced.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by void_mint on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:57PM (#28063381)
> They weren't. They were second class teams because they were outsourced.

This is it. The quality of the work was just really bad, very consistently. It had nothing to do with being remote.

Re:Don't call it 'outsourcing': Hiring employees globally is... by aiisjustanif on Saturday August 07, 2021 @02:03AM (#28096137)
Yet that are often treated as such, race and ethnicity are not the same.