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Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:13PM (#28054302)
AI is 98%-likelihood “benign” (i.e. just a tool, which is certainly not benign for those of us that it gets used against!) and 1%-likelihood world-ending catastrophe, like grey goo or nuclear armageddon. (Made-up percentages that don't even sum to 100%.) I don't think we have much to worry about for a while, because brains are pretty efficient, very few computers are as powerful as human brains, and there's a limit to the damage an evil human with internet access can do… isn't there? So I think AI risk is bounded by evil-human risk for the next ten years, at least.

Climate change isn't a risk – there's still some uncertainty about it, but it's happening. Saying it's a risk is like saying riptides are a risk while you're in one. No! It's a danger! Get out of it by swimming perpendicularly to the shore!

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by AbrahamParangi on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:20PM (#28054380)
The risk, presumably is the outcomes of climate change- which are uncertain and almost certainly not guaranteed death for everyone
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:26PM (#28054433)
“Guaranteed death for everyone” is the current state of affairs. You will die. I will die. This is a terrible bar for “should we care about this issue”?

Autocratic dictator of the world says “deciduous trees and the colour yellow are now banned, on pain of death”? Well, it's not guaranteed death for everyone, so why should I care?

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by AbrahamParangi on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:30PM (#28055541)
I didn't say that you shouldn't care about it. I am saying that a 95th percentile negative outcome for climate change is still probably limited in its existential impact, not that you're gonna like it.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by sammalloy on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:33PM (#28054506)
Wet bulb temperature, clathrate gun, food web collapse, albedo decrease, dormant virus release from permafrost, increase of tropical disease, water scarcity, crop and livestock failure—that /is/ almost certainly guaranteed extinction for humanity. How is this even debatable? We are already on this path.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:49PM (#28054672)
Well, expert organizations like the IPCC produce reports on the expected impact of climate change, which don't include human extinction as even a worst-case possibility. I'm the last person who'd claim the experts are always right, but it's gotta be at least debatable.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by sammalloy on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:54PM (#28055260)
This problem was discussed by Pratt and Dunlop in their 2019 policy paper for the National Centre for Climate Restoration:

> Climate scientists may err on the side of “least drama”, whose causes may include adherence to the scientific norms of restraint, objectivity and skepticism, and may underpredict or down-play future climate changes. In 2007, security analysts warned that, in the two previous decades, scientific predictions in the climate-change arena had consistently under-estimated the severity of what actually transpired.

> This problem persists, notably in the work of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), whose Assessment Reports exhibit a one-sided reliance on general climate models, which incorporate important climate processes, but do not include all of the processes that can contribute to system feedbacks, compound extreme events, and abrupt and/or irreversible changes.

> Other forms of knowledge are downplayed, including paleoclimatology, expert advice, and semi-empirical models. IPCC reports present detailed, quantified, complex modelling results, but then briefly note more severe, non-linear, system-change possibilities in a descriptive, non-quantified form. Because policymakers and the media are often drawn to headline numbers, this approach results in less attention being given to the most devastating, difficult-to-quantify outcomes.

> In one example, the IPCC’s Fifth Assessment Report in 2014 projected a sea-level rise of 0.55-0.82 metre by 2100, but said “levels above the likely range cannot be reliably evaluated”. By way of comparison, the higher of two US Department of Defence scenarios is a two-metre rise by 2100, and the “extreme” scenario developed by a number of US government agencies is 2.5 metres by 2100.

> Another example is the recent IPCC 1.5°C report, which projected that warming would continue at the current rate of ~0.2°C per decade and reach the 1.5°C mark around 2040. However the 1.5°C boundary is likely to be passed in half that time, around 2030, and the 2°C boundary around 2045, due to accelerating anthropogenic emissions, decreased aerosol loading and changing ocean circulation conditions.

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @11:22PM (#28056847)
These strike me as plausible criticisms, and I've seen others say similar things. I've even seen a few experts - not many, but not zero - argue that the current global order is at risk.

What I haven't seen any expert argue for is almost certainly guaranteed extinction for humanity. I don't mean to sound like I'm nitpicking on the wording, but the core problem I'm pointing to here is the game of telephone that gets played in climate science, where "this is a crazy extreme possibility that could happen if everything goes wrong" becomes "this is a realistic worst case scenario that's likely if nobody tries to stop it" becomes "this will definitely for sure happen unless we stop emissions right this second".

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by AbrahamParangi on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @07:27PM (#28055517)
"adherence to the scientific norms of restraint, objectivity and skepticism"

This is science. It's what science is made of. Abandon these and you abandon science altogether. Which is fine, I guess, but it has no connection to reality.

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by sammalloy on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @08:21PM (#28055890)
I think you might have missed the point of this criticism. It is not science that is the problem, it is the way it is practiced, which in this case tends to be too conservative and operates by consensus. Bill McGuire explains the problem:

> "They’re conservative, because insufficient attention has been given to the importance of tipping points, feedback loops and outlier predictions; consensus, because more extreme scenarios have tended to be marginalized."

A good summary of the overall problem is found here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/19/you-shoul...

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by ThomPete on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:41AM (#28057367)
you are arguing against one type of bias by introducing another. This is not science this is ideology.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by sammalloy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:31AM (#28058285)
My argument represents the exact opposite of bias. If the IPCC estimates are too conservative and result in poor predictions, and if their consensus mechanism excludes worst case scenarios, then more inclusive estimates and including more scenarios leads to more impartiality—the opposite of bias.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by ThomPete on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:01AM (#28058469)
how do you know that your choice of sources isnt the one thats biased? You dont. You are engaging in ideology not science. The very fact that you dont see this and just assume you have the right perspective illustrates my point. You are an ideologue.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by wizzwizz4 on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:45PM (#28054622)
But some groups of humans might survive, and might still have descendants tens of thousands of years later! It's not guaranteed that humanity goes extinct; we're pretty creative. (Though the same can't be said for a lot of other species.)
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by ThomPete on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @05:57PM (#28054740)
these are not the certainties you think they are. You are confusing speculation with demonstration. Astroid hitting earth is a far bigger threat to humanity than any scientifically demonstrated consequence of climate change. You are not on the scientific ground you think you are.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by sammalloy on Tuesday August 03, 2021 @06:38PM (#28055099)
Let's see, on the one hand we have climate change, the largest threat to humanity in this century, which is currently killing around 400,000 people a year and costing the world $1.2 trillion, impacting agricultural production, causing deaths from malnutrition, contributing to poverty, and increasing the incidence of disease.

On the other hand, it is the opinion of astronomers that "no known asteroids currently pose any significant threat to Earth."

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by ThomPete on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @12:37AM (#28057348)
climate change is NOT the largest threat no matter how many times you repeat it.

Astroids, suns exploding, super vulcanos etc these are actual potential extinction level events. Things that have actually been demonstrated to happen without human intervention. “No known” is what you are looking for. There are no known demonstrated consequences of climate change that we dont know how to deal with.

More people are saved each year by human technology than die from it.

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by wizzwizz4 on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @10:47AM (#28061616)
> climate change is NOT the largest threat no matter how many times you repeat it.

Other people are giving new arguments each time. You're the one repeating assertions.

> There are no known demonstrated consequences of climate change that we dont know how to deal with.

It feels like you're arguing “and therefore we shouldn't deal with it”.

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by ThomPete on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @11:18AM (#28062013)
They are not giving new argument (and it's mostly the same person) they are making the same claims that are not being backed up (i.e. scientifically demonstrated).

We can speculate all we want that means nothing.

With regards to doing something about "it" what demonstrated consequences of climate change is it you mean we don't know how to deal with? I never claimed we shouldn't deal with it, just that it's neither existential nor something we can't handle.

Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by sammalloy on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @03:16AM (#28058193)
Climate change, caused by humans, is in fact the largest threat facing civilization at this time. And it will require human technology to mitigate it. You appear to making denialist arguments of some kind or another and changing the subject for some reason. There is currently no threat to humanity from asteroids, supernovae, supervolcanoes, or other types of existential risks. We know anthropogenic climate change is the biggest threat facing humanity at this time.
Re:The Dangerous Ideas of “Longtermism” and “Existential Risk” by ThomPete on Wednesday August 04, 2021 @04:04AM (#28058485)
I am denying your climate catastrophism claims for which there is no scientifically demonstrated base. You are engaging in speculation not science.