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Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by uluyol on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:33PM (#28031647)
Wow geez. There's been a lot of BS being thrown around about Cloudflare. I don't work for them, but I have been following the company for years.

On Cloudflare being a gatekeeper: yes, if you care about load, cost, and attacks, you need one. Cloudflare offers real value to their customers by providing these services. Will that lead to Cloudflare controlling the web? Well, you've got a number of direct competitors (Akamai and Fastly, to name two) in addition to the CDN offerings provided by cloud providers. Cloudflare isn't the first CDN, isn't the largest, and won't have a monopoly on being an internet middleman. Compare Cloudflare's network (https://www.cloudflare.com/network/) to Google's (https://peering.google.com/#/infrastructure).

On the necessity of gatekeepers on the internet: this is the way the internet works. You are responsible for peering with the rest of the worls at a physical location and dealing with the traffic that comes your way. If you want to be close to your users (to avoid bandwidth bottlenecks and provide lower latency), you need to install equipment all over the place and peer with other networks. If you want to deal with bad traffic, you need the capacity and software to handle/filter it. You can always build your own CDN if you want, but the only way to deal with these issues is a CDN. Maybe if the internet worked differently things would be different. But that would be a huge change, especially since someone has to foot the cost of building these services. I guess you could somehow distribute the cost (though I don't see how), but you'd also have to someone deal with the management and development of said infra, and I have no idea how such a thing would work without a central entity being responsible.

Anyway sorry for the rant.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by inopinatus on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:52PM (#28032102)
> this is the way the internet works

Eh, gotta call this out. The Internet is designed on an end-to-end principle, and at each layer the endpoints are expected to mediate behaviour via protocols.

By this architectural standard, middleboxes (including all HTTP proxies and CDNs and what have you) are kludges. They are not "how the internet works", they are the antithesis, they are symptoms of emergent pathology. These are barriers to federation and distributed systems, both enabling and enabled by centralizing forces that divert individual autonomy & value to institutional & commercial interest. They are evidence for Further Research & Development Required, and my belief is we'll eventually solve these problems at the end-to-end protocol level.

As for Cloudflare, particularly, their business strategy is to drive down the marginal cost of their own bandwidth, for use in revenue-bearing services such as DDoS mitigation. Every service provided for "free" (some of which, at the free tier, will increase your site latency and lower your visitor count, by the way) works to increase their volumes for use as leverage in peering negotiations. As ever, "free" = "you are the product".

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by uluyol on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:42PM (#28032362)
> The Internet is designed on an end-to-end principle

Yes, this is true, and the end-to-end principle is great. But it's not always straightforward to follow, and certainly is not a religion. In the end, no one cares about the end-to-end principle. They want systems that are flexible, robust, and high performance. In some sense, it's a lot like simplicity. You try to and make your design as simple as possible, but sometimes, you have to have complexity. It's not ideal, but it's not a deal breaker either.

Additionally, you have to ask the question: what is an endpoint? "A" server, or can a distributed system be seen as an endpoint? After all, a single server is a bunch of independent components communicating with one another (via infinity fabric, PCIe, etc), so why would it matter if we spread those components across machines (and spoke RPCs, RDMA, whatever)? To me, a service running in a data center with a load balancer in front is "an endpoint" and no real violation of the end-to-end principle is taking place.

I think extending the definition of "endpoint" to everything behind a CDN is a stretch too far, but ultimately, I think "endpoint" isn't really defined well-enough to be the unit we talk about.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by inopinatus on Monday August 02, 2021 @06:45AM (#28035011)
On the contrary, these are not muddy grey area topics that are open to barnum statements, gaslighting, and misrepresentation, such as:

> In the end, no one cares about the end-to-end principle

This assertion couldn't be more wrong. I care; many others care; caring about the architecture of the Internet did not die with John Postel.

> you have to ask the question: what is an endpoint?

No, we don't: it's covered in networking 101. Any party in a layered protocol whose interactions are opaque to the layers below and transparent to the layers above. And they're defined by those interactions, not by their implementation.

A CDN is a forward caching proxy for content layered over HTTP, and that's all that matters when it comes to realising their emergent properties. Don't be hypnotized by the shiny dangly extras that the providers wave around hoping to distract attention from what they actually offer, or why they do it, or the consequences.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by uluyol on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:29AM (#28035672)
I didn't mean to offend, sorry if my statement rubbed you the wrong way.

All I'm saying is that users of a system don't think about design principles, they are there for the developers and operators to manage complexity and meet higher-level objectives. They can do this even if they are not followed 100% perfectly.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by meowface on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:43PM (#28032369)
Sort of, but nature / decentralization / emergence is messy. The internet still works pretty well without rigid intermediaries (besides unavoidable core routing paths and root DNS), but that open property is also what enables people to easily disrupt things, like with DDoS attacks.

In a hypothetical distant-future anarchistic society, it's very likely you're still going to have private security forces, analogous to Cloudflare's security offerings, and some of them will probably grow to be quite big.

Attackers have an asymmetric advantage. One person with a gun can quickly terrorize or kill a lot of people, and one kid with $10 on their parents' credit card or access to a botnet can instantly bring an organization's web presence to its knees at the click of a button or input of a command.

I definitely agree that any one entity controlling too much of the access route is a concern and a risk, but before Cloudflare it was Akamai. If they never existed, Akamai and CloudFront would be the de facto oligopoly. If Cloudflare dies, someone else will probably gain a similar market share.

You can try to make security enforcement as decentralized as possible, like Bitcoin tries to. But, it was probably inevitable that a few huge mining pools would come to dominate, just like a few big security/CDN companies have.

It's plausible that there could be future solutions that will offer similar security and performance and resource-conserving benefits for free without requiring any private intermediates, and I'd happily recommend them over Cloudflare/Akamai/etc. if they existed and were as good or better. They just don't seem to be here right now.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by tshaddox on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:21PM (#28032242)
How else might you attempt to prevent or mitigate a DDoS attack on your server without using things which you consider to be kludges?
Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by BobbyJo on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:45PM (#28031728)
> ... have no idea how such a thing would work without a central entity being responsible.

Isn't this true of the entire internet? And that exists just fine thanks to a plethora of companies and nations.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by stickfigure on Sunday August 01, 2021 @08:54PM (#28031788)
If by "just fine" you mean "anyone with a botnet can take down your website (or, if small enough, country) at will". Thus we have CloudFlare et al.
Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by BobbyJo on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:22PM (#28031948)
My point was: I see no reason why we couldn't accomplish everything Cloudflare does without a central authority. Markets are able to solve just about any problem without any central person pulling the strings. Case in point: the internet.
Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by stickfigure on Monday August 02, 2021 @03:30AM (#28033853)
This is such a weird statement. I totally agree that markets can solve this problem. They brought us CloudFlare!

(and a few other companies that offer similar services)

Sadly, all of them appear to require Big Internet Infrastructure. This isn't a problem you're going to solve at the wifi level.

Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by BobbyJo on Monday August 02, 2021 @08:45PM (#28044528)
I'm speaking specifically against the statement that Cloudflare, acting as a central authority, can solve problems that cannot be solved without a central authority.
Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by simonh on Sunday August 01, 2021 @10:01PM (#28032145)
As has been pointed out there are alternatives to cloud flare so it’s not a central authority.
Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by edmundsauto on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:35PM (#28032013)
Is the internet a good example of free markets and capitalism? I always perceived the glory days as more akin to communism.
Re:Cloudflare's inaccessible browser contradicts the company... by simonh on Sunday August 01, 2021 @09:59PM (#28032135)
There’s nothing about capitalism that prevents, or is anathema to companies, organisations or individuals from collaborating or pooling resources. Communism is a specific political and economic system with explicit and deliberately coercive communalising policies. It doesn’t have a monopoly on community forming or coordinated community action or the pooling of community resources though.