I had a similar plan when I started my career, where the idea was to save and self-support independent endeavors.

13 years later: I can execute the "full plan" at any time, but I find myself to have sufficient autonomy and be comfortable enough at my current position.

This plan is certainly not the highest payoff in my case, as I can't buy the toys/houses my peers have. However work/life balance is great, and I still have the option to build things without needing outside funding.

This sounds a little like the Key and Peele sketch where they plan a bank heist. The plan is to work for the bank for many years, and every month the bank will deposit some of its money directly into their own accounts.

17 more years and leave like nothing happened :P

> "I can execute the "full plan" at any time, but I find myself to have sufficient autonomy and be comfortable enough at my current position."

I don't know if you realize it, but there is probably a strong connection between the "I can execute the 'full plan' at any time" part of your life and the "autonomy and [..] comfortable [..] position" part. In other words: In our times there is no downside in preparing your independence and working on your autonomy except that it is a lot of work. There is no real alternative either, even and especially if you plan to be dependently employed until retirement. Once you are in a dependent position and you don't have the option to leave short term, sadly the risk of being taken advantage of is real.

Great to hear that it can work, and has worked for you. Congrats & thank you for the inspo

Houses and toys are plentiful and of low value. The payoffs I have in mind are the great luxury of being able to afford creative freedom and integrity, and the pleasures of mastery. Sounds like you are rich in all that - the wise person's wealth

Not a bad plan but I’ll share my approach since it contrasts with yours.

I worked in big tech for a few years. Hated it. My work is very important to me and I do not like working on projects where I have no creative control or autonomy.

So I started working fewer hours. I was an hourly contractor and got down to 30 hours a week with nothing more than grumbles for my manager.

I’m a generalist in my field (robotics) and “full stack”. I wrote a manifesto [1] and handed out 250 copies at maker faire etc. I wrote about my dream.

Someone shared my dream and could pay me for it. To lower cash flow requirements I only work about 20 billable hours a week. I can survive just fine on that. My billable work is part of my dream and the rest of the week I work on hobby stuff which is all also in furtherance of my dream. 100% of what I am working on is open source.

My story is certainly unique. I don’t expect you to meet someone who will help fund your dream. But I basically got very good at my craft and then found a part time work arrangement that allows me to spend a lot of time working towards other personal goals I have.

And I don’t have to stay stuck in a damn corporate office.

So yeah, instead of negotiating ever higher wages, consider negotiating ever more flexible schedules.

[1] http://tlalexander.com/static/zine.pdf

The idea of asking for fewer hours rather than more money makes a great deal of sense to me and is something I've considered. I will probably mix that into my plan once I have the experience, competence, and reputation to be able to negotiate such an arrangement. It would be ideal for multiple reasons, actually, to continue to work something like 10-20 hrs/week. One option that might work for me is teaching/tutoring, as I like it and have experience with it

Thank you for sharing your experience and for the advice!

The cool thing is that (if you enjoy doing it, like I do) you can use the extra time to learn new and interesting skills which perhaps complement your existing skillset. I mean, you may be better served by spending time with family, or with painting or cooking or all manner of things that aren't related to work. But I really enjoy programming and 3D printing and electronics design, and with this schedule I have enough time to work on endless pointless projects which have the side effect of teaching new skills or reinforcing existing ones. This makes me more valuable than if I had stayed working 40hrs a week writing hardware test code day in and day out.

> as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start building games on the side using the skills you've developed

As always when this topic comes up on HN, check your employer's IP assignment policy in your employment agreement before you moonlight or work on side projects that you think you might own or make money from in the future. Some are limited to what you make on company equipment / company time, others claim everything you make at home or at work, using any equipment.

I wanted to write something to the effect of me being happy that stuff like this would not fly in Germany because...

... damn was I wrong. And even if I already read contracts very, very carefully I will in addition have something new to look for, as even so called "Freizeitwerke" (works during free time) could be claimed exclusively by an employer.

One interesting different is that in most of the US you're usually in the clear if whatever you work on isn't related to your employer's business (although that can be a bit nebulous). However my understanding is that in Germany, even if your side project isn't related to your employer's business you're still required to give them first dibs at licensing any IP you create.

It is purely a contractual question. So if your contract states rules like this - you are right. But without written agreement in the contract your employer has no rights to your work done during your free time.

At least, as far as I understand after reading up on the regulations and the text of the respective laws.

I think my employer has something similar, but it ties in with the no-compete clause. That said, there's more of a gentlemen's agreement in place, and if you verbally mention it to the boss it's fine in most cases.

But having a job in industry X and a side gig / personal project also in industry X is dangerous.

I was under the impression that corporate employed inventors in Germany actually have a limited interest in their inventions that follows them between employers. Could be it’s changed, or my source is simply mistaken, since my knowledge is back from when Kodak AG was still a thing.

I've been guilty once or twice of forming a strong (usually self-righteous) opinion only to have it collapse before I get a chance to enjoy smugly lecturing the Internet. This is interesting. Thanks for posting anyway.

Definitely don’t use employer equipment to produce work that you intend to profit from.

As always, consult a lawyer and understand the implications of any IP assignment clauses in employment contracts. That said, IP assignment clauses are generally intended to cover works related to your employment. If your day job is writing SaaS backend code in Java, a reasonable employer has no interest in paying lawyers to seize your indie video game IP. However, if your day job is writing video games and your passion project is also a video game, your employer has a reasonable position to argue that your video game overlaps too much with your work for hire and could be at risk. This can be true even without an explicit IP assignment clause, so don’t assume the employment contract is the final word on the matter.

Ironically, this means it’s safer to work a non-gamedev day job if your goal is to make video games on the side.

The easiest path might be the one mentioned above: Work a standard day job that pays well, build up a comfortable amount of savings for a decade, and then use that cushion to do what you want. The failure rate for indie game devs is massive, so plan career paths and finances such that it won’t be the end of the world if it doesn’t work out.

Thanks for the always useful reminder. The plan is indeed to work outside the game industry itself, with an eye in part to reducing the chance of this being an issue. Also so my hourly rate can be a solid double what it would be in AAA, ha

I will also add that I am always delighted to violate contract terms that impinge on my personal creative and commercial agency to the extent I can get away with. I am not about to let myself feel bound by something I had to sign in order to eat, except insofar as is prudent and serves my interests

That said, I do also think these noncompete/IP clauses can be reasonable sometimes. I wouldn't work on a commercial indie match 2 game while employed by a AAA match 3 developer

The author of the article, Jeff Vogel, is a few steps (25 years) ahead of you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxVBJem3Rs (like the article, a humour-laced talk, enjoyable)

Looks fantastic, thank you for sharing!

Here's a random favorite of mine, as a thank you: https://youtu.be/_4iswqa8r-Q

Not a business talk, but a design deep dive from a genre master. Existential breakdown starts ~20:30

Good luck, I'm working this same plan here! I also do contract game dev on the side which helps me work out engine ideas / tooling [0].

[0] https://doctorarcana.com/

Multiple positive reviews from Steam players with 5+hr playtime is already a big achievement, congrats & good luck

thanks!

lol, this exactly describes my career and entry into indie games about a decade ago. It sounds reasonable but don't do it. You'll find by the time you can create that game you've been wanting to make, graphics pipelines and technology will pass you by making your idea irrelevant. So you end up making a quick game to make a quick buck and go back into the workforce a little bit richer. [1]

If you want to make games, or software, or any product, you have to hit while the iron is hot otherwise someone else will come along and beat you to it. Even if you invest aggressively, it's better to just keep doing that and retire than waste it on that pet project you had your eye on for 20 years.

[1]: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/xbox360/958447-alchemist/video...

and yes, I realize the game I referenced was basic, had UX issues, and was more or less a cash grab on xbox360. I made it using my game engine that I spent 2 years writing, but the game showcased only took me 15 days to write. After release, I just went back to work.

This is a great route for just about any kind of tech adjacent creative profession.

Source: me, who is taking part in The Quittening to test out whether it's viable or not.

You probably already know this, but on the off chance somebody has not seen this before: the FIRE community has a lot of additional advice, know-how and general support to help refine and execute this style of life-plan.

Thank you!!

> This is the route I'm taking - I'll update with my progress in 5 years or so

Nice one, mate. Good luck. I'm doing the same, so right behind you :)

Good luck to you as well! :)

My route: 5 years indie games making under minimum wage income. Another 7 years writing books about how I did that, earning even less. Year 13, stumbled into an incredibly well paying position as CTO of an innovative game dev startup and have never looked back.

> as you work the job and save/invest aggressively, start building games on the side using the skills you've developed

Oh the dreams of young single childless people.

> Oh the dreams of young single childless people.

Two kids + wife + mortgage and I managed it.

Even better I can report: you do not need full FIRE and 15+ years of career. All the indies I know who "failed" returned to the industry with yet better jobs than prior. Ours is an industry where experience itself becomes security. Game's tooling changes slowly. While hordes are fighting for the few entry level positions every team actual wants is experienced people. Thus once you get into the games industry and stay, the jobs get better.

As a 50 yr old childless bachelor I can attest that relationships and offspring are the biggest time, energy and financial sinks.

Not saying it anit worth it, just that you will expend %50-150 of your resources depending on how responsible a partner and parent you are.