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Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by markus_zhang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:19PM (#27946123)
As a Chinese I can elaborate a bit more about the logic:

1. Middle income parents don't want children to fall down from the social ladder.

2. Education is still their best bet. Well you definitely have better tools but they don't have access to them (easily).

3. When everyone is competing for better education, it becomes an arms race, with people throwing in literally millions of bucks for

1) (学区房) Apartments that are in good school districts. The usual trick is to purchase a very small apartment (may still cost some 2-3 million USD in Beijing for example for a something like a 20 m^2 one). One recent policy (before this one) is to completely remove those districts and randomly pick schools for the kids (I think it's still based on geography but a larger one)

2) For-profit school (what this news is about). Parents are willing to pay good teachers some 150-200 USD per hour for these schools. Since most For-profit schools just hire the best teachers of the public schools this poses a couple of major issues: A) Teachers are inclined to make as little effort in public education as possible, and B) It poses a tremendous pressure on the parents and the kids, monetary and psychological. Some kids literally burn candle every day, 7/24.

Now you combine all these and no wonder those kids will NEVER want to give birth to their own kids and go over the hell again.

But I don't think these policies will work. The policy-makers are just cutting off the shaft and ignoring the arrow. You see, the competition is still there, and even more because parents have to figure out new ways to join the arms race, which guarantee that they will waste a lot of money trying new things. I figured the whole bureacratics probably received some order from high-up, maybe Xi himself, but chose to do lip service instead of spending real money.

One golden rule about government policy (to tell if it's real or not) is to see whether they are going to spend money on it.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by rutherblood on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:53AM (#27946825)
This exact problem plagues India. The public education system is essentially irrelevant here. Teachers hardly make money, even in private schools are hence incentivised towards joining the after-school private coaching industry training highschool kids for hyperc-competitive college entrance exams which is where the real money lies given parents are blindly willing to spend fortunes for even a small chance their kids might do better. Everyone knows regular high-school hours are quickly becoming irrelevant in a country obsessed with entrance exam coaching. Even many schools are getting in on the action with "intergrated post-school coaching". Education has truly become a gigantic business in your country the day even Amazon wants to get in on the action & does.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by chakkepolja on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:41AM (#27947256)
I was brought up in rural environment and education was very less competitive untill I finished 12th. When I got into city into a private engineering college with much high fees and hostel cost, everything in education also felt rushed and sub-optimal.

Nobody has the incentive to teach properly. But until I entered the big college, the pretentiousness of 'heavy' education (which is basically making us grunt work because the professors are relatively very unskilled ) and associated stress was low.

And that's one of the "top" colleges of the state. Professors couldn't properly write a java program using threads or collections and had the audacity to tell us to write every program two times __on fucking paper__.

This country's education system is pretentious AF. The institutions are mostly incentivized to sell snake oil to rich urban parents. The urban parents are pushing their kids into a rat race.

Edit: sorry for venting out here.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by rdedev on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:14AM (#27947399)
I stayed in one of those integrated school/coaching centers. It was miserable. The sole purpose of the place was make us learn as much as possible for engineering exams in those 2 years and nothing else. Luckily I had some good teachers and learnt how to learn stuff on my own. So I'm not completely bitter about it.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by crossroadsguy on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:37AM (#27948401)
One of those places in Hyd by any chance? That city is famous of this.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by blueblisters on Sunday July 25, 2021 @04:24AM (#27947643)
I think the real solution for both, India and China, is to reform how students are evaluated for entry to college. It seems lazy to block coaching-classes/edtechs when they are simply picking up the slack in public education, and taking advantage of an ecosystem that encourages them to thrive.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by lozenge on Sunday July 25, 2021 @05:09AM (#27947830)
Any metric that becomes a target and all that.

The number of opportunities in both jobs and universities whose degrees are meaningful is far less than the number of people. And the consequences of not getting one of those opportunities is much bigger than say, in the US.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by hagy on Sunday July 25, 2021 @06:18AM (#27948098)
I think this could be solved by including randomization. E.g., if the top schools currently take the top 5% of students by test score, then they could instead consider the top 25% of students and select 20% of them through a lottery. In that case there is still value to performing well on the test, but you can't singularly focus on success through testing well.

Students and their parents would need to plan out a career path assuming they don't get into the best schools. They could still spend time and money on education and personal development, but it wouldn't be singularly directed at test prep. Instead, there'd be more focus on developing the foundational knowledge, critical thinking, and diligent habits that promote career success.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by sfifs on Sunday July 25, 2021 @10:04AM (#27949238)
The societal benefits of maintaining fairness in opportunities to move up the economic ladder (speaking about India here) far outweighs other criteria. While one could argue that access to coaching institutes creates an unfair barrier on its own, in practice coaching institutes often teach good students of lesser means for free (because they can advertise their results and good results attract more students to coaching institutes).

These top colleges (in India) are literally a pathway to economic betterment of extended families as they're very affordable (lower income families essentially pay no fees), reasonably good and pretty much guarantee an upper middle class exit. I think introducing any shade of unfairness into this process even if it reflects underlying unfairness of life will damage soceital cohesion.

Source: studied in these colleges and know personally several classmates of very modest means whose extended families benefited from their success. Also personally know a few people in China who have equivalent stories.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by fellellor on Sunday July 25, 2021 @11:30AM (#27949870)
The focus of those seeking to help kids is on completely the wrong things. The solution doesn't really lie in optimising the coaching exam system - sure it can be improved but the leverage of outcome is very low - but rather in the larger economy. We need more businesses, better regulation, sleeker government and policing system. This would do more to ease the pressure on kids and families than any regulation on the coaching industry would.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by zozbot234 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:35PM (#27952217)
> We need more businesses, better regulation, sleeker government and policing system.

We need these things for good reasons, but the skill premium is here to stay. Both in the West and even more so (because differences are so vast, and redistributing incomes is not exactly feasible) in developing countries like China and India.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by ZeroGravitas on Sunday July 25, 2021 @09:06AM (#27948891)
Came to suggest this. Has a variety of applications.

And as you point out, if it's all or nothing, or massively increasing returns then the people near the cutoff/bend in the curve fight like hell to stay on the right side of the line instead of rebalancing the incentives.

Basically turns education into a lottery where everyone spends lots of money to buy a lot of tickets because there's no sensible alternative. So appropriate that one of the solutions is to run an actual lottery that you can't buy more tickets for.

Banning tuition seems like a surprisingly far-sighted move, wonder what else they'll come up with and how it'll work out.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by fellellor on Sunday July 25, 2021 @11:34AM (#27949895)
I disagree. Banning tuition is a very stupid move. All they did was to deprive poorer kids from accessing these facilities. The families of kids with resources are going to find a way to subvert the ban anyway.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by Moru on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:42PM (#27950598)
You can always bribe yourself to a winning lottery ticket
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by kace91 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @04:58AM (#27947778)
It's hard to imagine an evaluation system that doesn't lead to the arms race, when there's a lot of competition for comparatively scarce positions. What's your idea?
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by sumnole on Sunday July 25, 2021 @08:29AM (#27948680)
We're seeing similar in the United States. Parents are expected to take on 6 figure debts to pay for their children's college education. If you don't have a college degree, with few exceptions your career is vocational. We could stop looking down on this alternative vocational path, and we could have a free public higher education system but there's too much money to be made in selling degrees and dreams.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by elteto on Sunday July 25, 2021 @09:58AM (#27949204)
No one is expected to take on 6 figure debts. There are plenty of public universities that can rival Ivies and many elite, private universities have extensive aid programs. You can complete an engineering degree in an in-state school for less than $30k debt after aid.

People still get on absurd levels of debt but there’s a large personal decision component there.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by Moru on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:44PM (#27950619)
What you buy yourself is a contact network that you would not get at the public school.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by throwSZ99 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:21AM (#27947161)
I think that the 996 work culture will be the next domino to fall. Many ambitious Chinese "work" from 9am to 9pm, six days a week. It's "work" in the sense that 996 is well-padded with unproductive face time and phone time. Office buildings stay lit well into the night and young office workers barely have time to date let alone form families.

In the last two years, the popularity of foxi (buddha-like apathy) and more recently, tangping (lying flat and abandoning the rat race), show the degree of stress young people are under. Stressed out people are less likely to form families and have children. China needs more children.

Here's a video that discusses the rat race and potential effects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDc8-lNSFR0

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by rorykoehler on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:46AM (#27947508)
Maybe more children isn’t the answer. Not only for China. We’re pillaging the planets resources to the point where there will be nothing left for future generations unless we find a different economic model AND improve the efficiency of current technologies and methods.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by ClumsyPilot on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:57AM (#27948493)
The population has to decrease in a gradual and manageable way. In demographic collapse we cannot support retirees. Unless we have a totally different economic model, but then we would not be in this in the forst place.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by imtringued on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:24AM (#27948347)
China has terrible demographics right now. Their population will get old and their economic dominance will disappear. As a CCP politician you will have a big angry mob knocking at your door who believed that you were the one bringing them to prosperity.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by xwolfi on Sunday July 25, 2021 @05:12AM (#27947840)
But the problem is that if we in China weaken now, then others will benefit from the planet while we struggle in a long slow decline.

It's probably of our own making and not something foreigners do care about - but the problem today is how to make people comfortable at life enough to at least have 2 children, something that is the basis of a functionning society (meaning it can renew itself).

You can have less children if you want, but us I think we need this as a goal: we already do pretty much less than 1 per woman, so we already achieved your dream.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by BossingAround on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:14AM (#27948308)
> But the problem is that if we in China weaken now, then others will benefit from the planet while we struggle in a long slow decline.

We all will struggle in a long, slow decline, given that the earth will be able to maintain fewer and fewer people in the century to come due catastrophes like global warming.

The "China cannot get weak because that leads to others prospering and we wouldn't want that" thinking is deeply flawed.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by rorykoehler on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:16PM (#27950315)
It's both highly flawed and highly logical. It's a major failing of the nation state model.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by BossingAround on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:23PM (#27951567)
It's logical within a lose-lose mindset that most of the world hopefully abandoned in the 50s. It's what leads to wars.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by sudosysgen on Sunday July 25, 2021 @02:31PM (#27951639)
Ah, no, the world has not abandoned that model, sadly. Relative dominance is as important as it ever was.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by belzebalex on Sunday July 25, 2021 @05:39AM (#27947933)
I think your analysis is great, but a better solution might be to just pay and consider teachers better.

Here's a data point: in France, after high school, we're put for two years into a "preparatory class" where we prepare during two years for engineering school entrance exams. Preparatory class selection occurs on high school achievements but don't matter at all: the teaching is roughly the same between the preparatory schools. And, teachers in preparatory schools are usually the best you can find: they're very well paid and hugely respected. Plus, they have to pass an exam where they are filtered on their teaching capabilities. In my two years there, I've had very good teachers. The curiculuum is very intensive. The normal workday is 8am-6pm of regular classes and extends until sleep for most students. It is rough, but long enough so that the only way to survive is to keep a healthy work-life balance. I didn't work a lot during holidays, slept for 9 hours every night and kept partying most weekends but still managed to get into France's second best engineering school. And, private teachers don't help much. The state already employs the best teachers you can find and there's so much school time that it would be hard to find time for private lessons. Furthermore, exams are made in a way that is very hard to game. I still think the best way to go into an elite engineering school is to be genuinely interested in engineering, maths and physics.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by DisjointedHunt on Monday July 26, 2021 @04:54AM (#27957195)
I'd love to read more about these prep schools. Have you a recommended link by any chance?
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by S4M on Monday July 26, 2021 @11:44PM (#27968389)
You might like the wikipedia page about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_pr%C3%A9paratoire_aux_g...
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by Aperocky on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:41PM (#27946234)
I'm more optimistic. I think it's going to work if simply because the ban on advertisement for tutoring.

Advertisement works and it opens up new market segments that previously are not interested in these things, and in a resource constrained environment (as in the admissions are more or less constant), it forces everyone to act. That and the almost complete bulldozing of the current tutoring infrastructure are going to leave that space blank for a good while - hopefully to some better childhoods at least in the near terms.

It's never about changing it for everyone, if it works on enough families, most families, or even some families, that were previously going to impose that insane tutoring on their kids, then it's worked in the right direction.

Personally, I think this obsession is illogical, a better major is a far better indicator of success than the differences in college a few points of Gaokao are going to make.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by markus_zhang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:44PM (#27946251)
I really doubt. It's just going to either go underground or use other names as a facade. New players, old story. The competition is still there.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by Aperocky on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:46PM (#27946266)
Well, depend on how serious the directive is, snitching are going to be very useful.

Kids will figure that one out quick.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by ChemSpider on Sunday July 25, 2021 @05:42AM (#27947947)
> snitching

That is not a good thing to teach kids.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by PicassoCTs on Sunday July 25, 2021 @06:18AM (#27948096)
That is a major part of political education in some places?

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-launches-hotline-n...

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by mensetmanusman on Tuesday July 27, 2021 @11:11PM (#27979886)
Friend grew up behind the iron curtain, she said a key to govt power was to make people distrust each other by encouraging snitching.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by Aperocky on Sunday July 25, 2021 @11:12AM (#27949713)
Ever heard of 'See something, say something?'?
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by markus_zhang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:52PM (#27946293)
Yeah let's wait and see.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by markus_zhang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @10:46PM (#27946262)
Second thought: Maybe it will work out, not because of the policies, but because the current generation that went through those arms race think it's enough and decide not to play the game a second time.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by chii on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:47PM (#27946526)
> current generation that went through those arms race think it's enough and decide not to play the game a second time.

it doesn't work this way, because if an action gives you an advantage over your competition, that action will be taken, and only those who don't take that action suffers. Thus, everyone takes action and leads to this arms race.

It is so for advertising for companies. it's the same for private tutoring.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by bellyfullofbac on Sunday July 25, 2021 @09:50AM (#27949151)
I wonder what the "elite" will do, including the people in high ranking government positions. Although I guess their kids will get jobs through nepotism.

Imagine if they sent their kids to study overseas, exposing them to ideas of western liberal democracies (the idealistic ones, not the bastardized implementations)...

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by markus_zhang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:50PM (#27946539)
Yeah so we are going back to square one.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by karmasimida on Sunday July 25, 2021 @01:33AM (#27946958)
It honestly gets so crazy that my nephew has only 6 hours of sleep on Saturday.

And the way those online education companies are advertising should be simply illegal. Usually advertisements should bring positivity, showcasing the benefits of the products. But in this case, they broadcasting negativity and anxiety to parents, blatantly sending the message that if they don't sign up the courses, their kids would be left behind and have no future. And ofc, they would be happily using the collected money to create more demand, namely even more anxiety.

What those education commolergqates are doing is to drain resources from public service, and reprice them on private market. CCP is playing CCP here, but this crackdown is objectively a good thing for everyone, except the investors.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by yomly on Sunday July 25, 2021 @05:39AM (#27947936)
>1) (学区房) Apartments that are in good school districts. The usual trick is to purchase a very small apartment (may still cost some 2-3 million USD in Beijing for example for a something like a 20 m^2 one). One recent policy (before this one) is to completely remove those districts and randomly pick schools for the kids (I think it's still based on geography but a larger one)

Just to add some flavour to this, recently a celebrity on a reality TV show complained that 650 RMB (~100USD) per day isn't even enough money to eat and was lampooned on social media for being out of touch with money.

Meanwhile parents in the school rat race are forking out millions of USD in Beijing to try outmanoeuvre each other. That's how BIG education is in china

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by robertwt7 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:39PM (#27946500)
Wow I was about to ask the reason why Chinese government is doing this. Thanks for giving us such detailed answer and context
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by oreally on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:46PM (#27946522)
Thanks for the nuanced view.

While I'm sure these measures do some good overall, I hope this doesn't escalate the chinese education system into cultivating a bubble of thought similar to colonial era china. Eventually, they should let the kids be exposed to the thoughts of the wider world when they are of age.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by markus_zhang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @11:49PM (#27946532)
I think the goal is to put more educational resources into public systems a.k.a. a more equal world. But the competition is there so unless they decide to tickle that one (gonna take a lot more than a few policies) no policy is gonna work.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by raincom on Sunday July 25, 2021 @01:11PM (#27950939)
This has to do with the lack of economic mobility. When 100 million poor families try to their get kids to 500,000 spots in top schools, this is an expected result. The 'how' of getting to these spots varies: test prep (in China and India); well-rounded ness, volunteering in Africa, exotic sports, (for kids in the US); etc.

When one path is made harder, the problem (of poor people trying to move up the economic ladder) does not disappear.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by cromwellian on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:46AM (#27948437)
Couldn’t they fix this problem by instead attacking the gaokao and credentialism inhiring? The whole reason people tiger their kids into oblivion with tutoring is to score better on the gaokao because it’s a make or break for many poorer families if your kid gets into a top tier school.

All they seem to have done is push this underground. Are the parents who spend so much money on tutoring going to stop? No, I feel it’ll just become more of an informal cash business hiring people over DMs, etc because all of the hyperconpetitive pressures with respect to getting into a top ranked school have not disappeared.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by zozbot234 on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:42PM (#27952274)
> Couldn’t they fix this problem by instead attacking the gaokao and credentialism inhiring?

Public examination systems similar to the gaokao are a very old Chinese tradition, so I don't think they're going to do this. It's a matter of national pride to keep such links to China's glorious past in place.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by SubiculumCode on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:24AM (#27946711)
Yours is a positive take; mine is much more pessimistic. Now, companies that tutor students will have to register as non-profits and won’t be able to raise money or receive investment from foreign companies. It is this last bit that really drives this policy. Banning foreign influence in tutoring is in line with Xi's continuing desire to monitor and control all aspects of thought and influence. Bloomberg reports that "all foreign tutors and foreign curriculum will also be banned."
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by archibaldJ on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:20AM (#27947421)
This makes more sense to me. It's very cheap to enforce too.

After having been in China for a while, I realize policies there, when enforced, often don't directly target the population. Instead, they always target organisations and businesses. And let them shape the ecosystems people are in.

This is a more efficient way of eroding the (economic and political) power of the masses.

Meanwhile, the affluent and well-connected would always find a way out, either to study in Singapore or attend Harvard.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by milofeynman on Sunday July 25, 2021 @12:44AM (#27946789)
Does that mean foreign English teachers in China just lost their jobs?
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by BossingAround on Sunday July 25, 2021 @07:16AM (#27948317)
That's a lot of the buzz in TEFL communities I've seen. Not sure if it's true, but the panic is definitely there.

With the rising xenophobia in China, I wouldn't advise people to do TEFL there anyways.

Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by AlfeG on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:09AM (#27947382)
They were pretty much under high pressure already. Lot of them returned home. I guess now they have no other options and return.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by yangff on Sunday July 25, 2021 @09:37PM (#27954590)
To be fair, banning for-profit school hurts the tax from these corporations since they cannot make profit from this. That's the goverment cost of the policy.
Re:China bans for-profit school tutoring in sweeping overhaul by rorykoehler on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:55AM (#27947542)
> The policy-makers are just cutting off the shaft and ignoring the arrow.

OT: That’s a super analogy. Is it colloquial in China?

Regarding the apartments in good school districts, how many of these exist? Are the prices this high due to these neighbourhoods being very elite/limited in supply or has Beijing property market gone crazy?