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Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by endisneigh on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:05PM (#27945119)
If the blockchain is immutable how do you reverse transactions if there's no monopoly on force in order to force the transaction?

Say I have 1 ton of carbon captured, I am paid 1 coin and I "prove" that I captured 1 ton. Secretly, the mechanism of my capture is temporary and I realize not only the 1 ton, but an additional ton as it costed me energy to make this scheme work. What are you gonna do?

Another, more likely example is that I say I have 1 ton captured, EnergyCorp has Bob audit me, I tell Bob, you approve of my fraudulent capture notice and I'll give you 10% of the profits. Bob agrees, I am paid my 1 coin. I give Bob 0.1 of the coin. We both win. Later Bob is found to have participated in the conspiracy. What are you gonna do?

You, the smart reader are reading this and think - OK fine, we'll build a way to confirm capture without anyone else being involved. Well, I point to scenario 1. What're ya gonna do? The post basically assumes trusted auditors, which is fine, but why even do blockchain?

Blockchain cannot beat reality.

For what it's worth, both scenarios apply to traditional fiat, but at least in that scenario punitive damages apply and can be applied. I'm not sure how a tax or fine can or would be applied with any blockchain. It's also not even clear to me why blockchains are even necessary after skimming the OP.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by wallacoloo on Sunday July 25, 2021 @03:08PM (#27951973)
This is, of course, a problem relevant to many decentralized systems. A user pays me $1 to store their data for 1 month. How do they know I’ll actually do that, and not run off with the money partway through the contract?

Bonding. If there’s a technique which allows for fraud 1 year down the road, then I need to have that much collateral locked in a trust for 1 year. If I behave, I get the collateral back, else I lose it. This discourages me from participating in detectable fraud over that year term.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by gwern on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:07PM (#27945130)
"Secretly, the mechanism of my capture is temporary"

How is accelerating exothermic mineralization reactions 'temporary', exactly?

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by endisneigh on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:11PM (#27945153)
Hard to say without more specifics on how exactly carbon captured is proven.

For a concrete example - let's say planting a 50ft tree to maturity constitutes capture. In other words, if I point to a lat and long and show that there wasn't a tree here before, and now there is, I receive the coin.

Well, if you spent energy moving a mature tree from another place, you've not only killed the existing tree, but eventually the tree you've replanted will die too.

That's the sort of scenario I'm referring to.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by gwern on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:21PM (#27945225)
I fully agree that standard carbon credits are difficult to prove anything about, and even use trees as examples. Are you sure you read my proposal in full?
Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by endisneigh on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:23PM (#27945239)
I only skimmed it (I only read the mineralization section completely) - my question is why is blockchain necessary if an auditor is involved? Isn't blockchain supposed to be zero-trust. Why even use a blockchain at all? I'll have to read your post in more detail later, so apologies if you've already answered these questions.

In any case my concern is more around the second scenario I posed in my first post than the first one.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by teslafire124 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @08:18PM (#27945532)
I agree with your assessment here. The crux this entire theory is built on is the auditing. People will find a way to defraud it, especially if it relies on physical evidence of carbonization. It would have to be highly regulated to deal with your conspiracy scenario. But the fact that it's decentralized makes that incredibly difficult. It's definitely something that has to be considered as a possibility before being practically applied.
Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by meowkit on Saturday July 24, 2021 @08:34PM (#27945598)
> my question is why is blockchain necessary if an auditor is involved? Isn't blockchain supposed to be zero-trust. Why even use a blockchain at all?

A common misconception. Blockchains are zero trust within the state/data space of the blockchain itself. We can refer to these space domains as "on-chain" and "off-chain".

Moving data or state information about the real world, say about the verification of successful carbon capture, to a blockchain is a core part of the oracle problem - which is the problem of migrating off-chain data, to the zero trust on-chain environment.

You use blockchains for the properties of immutability and transparency. In the case of gwern's proposal I can see a market environment where you can claim to capture carbon, provide data, make money (i.e. earn tokens) and then open yourself up to being "attacked" or "slashed". If someone else can make money/tokens by proving you are a liar you create an environment encouraging oracles (data providers) to be honest and accurate.

Final note: gwern pretty much states all of the above in his post, so I would suggest you not skim it.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by kevinwang on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:14PM (#27945173)
But the point of the post is to outline a process which is not temporary and is allegedly hard-to-transport.
Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by malux85 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:26PM (#27945255)
The immutable state of the blockchain is fine, in fact it’s better because it’s proof of the fraudulent transaction.

It’s possible to write smart contracts in a way that an auditor, or group of auditors who reach consensus, can forcibly remove tokens and freeze accounts, of course this moves the needle towards centralisation more, (and I’m not interested in arguing the merits of that) - Im merely pointing out that immutability is not absolute in the way you are describing and exceptional circumstances and admin overrides can be coded in to EVM based systems at least.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by endisneigh on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:27PM (#27945263)
> auditor, or group of auditors who reach consensus

If you are trusting a group of auditors why do you even need blockchain? The method in the OP is interesting, but I don't see the relevance of blockchain at all. Basically it comes down to some magical, incorruptible or comprisable auditor.

That's fine enough, but if you have that, you don't need blockchain to begin with.

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by malux85 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:29PM (#27945275)
You don’t, and I’m not interested in arguing the merits of that. I was pointing out that there are options on a technical level.
Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by endisneigh on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:31PM (#27945292)
I'm not sure what the point of your post is then - it was always possible to do a hard fork if the majority of miners/stakers/users agreed that a certain transactions was bad? That entire problem (consensus) is why blockchain supposedly exists and is purported to solve, no?
Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by malux85 on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:39PM (#27945325)
I'm not here to argue whether a blockchain is a correct use case or not, that's why I specifically said in my parent comment I'm not interesting in arguing about that, and also said it again in my parent comment. There's always someone here that is looking to pick a fight about "you dont need a blockchain", and I'm not interested in having that discussion (mostly because I agree with it in this case)

But to your point that it's possible to hard fork, well, of course, computers being turing complete you can always go one level deeper into the platform and change the underlying system, but on a practical level forcing all of the miners to upgrade their software and coordinating this is a HUGE effort, and it seems like a very bad architectural decision to force an entire platform upgrade to deal with fraudulent users when safety can be built into the smart contracts themselves.

But I'm not arguing this centralisation is a good idea either, I'm merely pointing out that immutability isn't as final as the original post would make it seem, and there are ways of dealing with the problems they outlined (someone having fraudulently acquired tokens)

Re:CO₂ Coin: Decentralized Carbon Capture Blockchains (2021) by endisneigh on Saturday July 24, 2021 @07:43PM (#27945346)
Your smart contract proposal doesn't contradict my concerns about immutability. What if the contract is improperly written or does the wrong thing? What would be done then? A smart contract isn't magic. So again I'm not really sure what your point is?

Is it that if everything goes perfectly with smart contracts being written perfectly with no bugs and all contingencies being taken into account and participants of the contract agree to the terms of said smart contracts in the event of fraud that's identified and confirmed it can be reversed? OK, point understood.