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Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by lefrenchy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:14PM (#27909086)
We literally got to the moon before any billionaires bought joy rides to lower orbit, so what you’re saying is proven false already by history?

It’s so insane to me that people honestly believe that we need billionaires to fund all their hedonic desires in order to achieve anything good and useful as a society. It’s provably false and frankly an absolutely pessimistic view of society and humanity.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:22PM (#27909220)
>We literally got to the moon before any billionaires bought joy rides to lower orbit,

Once upon a time you needed nation state sponsorship in order to sail across the ocean.

It's absolutely insane to me that people don't see that a billionaire can do as a vanity project something that was ~50yr ago only the purview of superpowers as an obvious sign of societal progress.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by rgbrgb on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:19PM (#27910800)
I think you're articulating exactly what the other commenters find appalling: a single man with the power of a state.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by BHSPitMonkey on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:36PM (#27911037)
There's some truth to this but for the most part you're drawing the wrong conclusion here; Things like aviation and rocketry have become well-understood and "cheap" enough that they're now within reach of the private sector (same goes for the development/construction of satellites which facilitates commercial demand for access to orbit). Just because I can use my smartphone to perform tasks which could only be rivaled by global superpowers 300 years ago doesn't mean I wield the power of a state.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by avarun on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:29PM (#27910946)
You, a single human being, can send messages from your home to the other end of the planet within a second today. This is greater power than any state had even 100 years ago.

Why compare this "single man's power" to a state from 50 years ago? It's disingenuous.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by bart_spoon on Thursday July 22, 2021 @12:00PM (#27920480)
You are missing the point. You, as an individual living in 2021, have the power of a state as recent as 100 years ago, in many ways. Is that also appalling?
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by ErneX on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:49PM (#27910387)
What’s hedonistic? this is a business. There’s money to be made on space, be it via a fancy rollercoaster now or mining or who knows what else in the future. It is inevitable.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @03:57PM (#27911294)
They, minus Musk but plus Carmack, aren’t in it for the money. It’s no coincidence that they all chose the same field to work in, which happens to be one 9-year old boys tend to be fascinated by.

And it isn’t because it’s such a good opportunity only they have a chance to succeed on, or we’d see plenty of large companies or a few unicorn startups trying as well.

That doesn’t mean they will never get some revenue, maybe recoup their investments, or even see real profits. Space X is on a trajectory in that general direction. But it isn’t what motivated them.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:39PM (#27911836)
Government did indeed put man on the moon. But they did it at an insane and unsustainable cost, which is why the moon was then abandoned.

Musk/Bezos/Branson are making space travel a paying proposition, which makes all the difference.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:53PM (#27912023)
Musk is creating a constellation of satellites that can provide global internet. His technology seems like the only viable way to and back from Mars. Bezos/Branson made a rollercoaster for the super wealthy.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by layoric on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @09:32PM (#27914329)
>Musk is creating a constellation of satellites that can provide global internet

And is a good example of creating negative externalities, lots of ground based astronomy (a field that has contributed immensely to our collective scientific knowledge and pushed technology advancements forward globally) extremely difficult due to those same satellites that create interference. Yes, global internet is good, but funnily enough this satellite network creates the need for more astronomical observations be done from space/orbit.. Handy that he is in the business of selling that service as well..

So while I agree his rocket technology is a great advancement and has spurred others to create similar reusable first stage rocket tech, these efforts were already underway. Musk might have accelerated this through risking his personal wealth when creating SpaceX but this was not a one man effort and people should spend less time attributing these advancements to one person.

Hoping "competition" in this space returns to helping orgs like NASA achieve scientific goals (rather than private joy rides), but that would require convincing govs to spend more tax money on these organizations..

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:11PM (#27914515)
I pretty much agree with everything you've said, maybe with different emphasis on certain points.

In particular, I do hope the reusable technology benefits people first and then science. I sometimes wonder about how many Einsteins are born and die without ever learning to read. First and foremost, I hope we use this technology to benefit people and science second.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:20PM (#27914553)
> Musk might have accelerated this through risking his personal wealth when creating SpaceX but this was not a one man effort and people should spend less time attributing these advancements to one person.

You could have erased any person in SpaceX and SpaceX would have happened anyway. Erase Musk, and no SpaceX. Musk was the lynchpin to making it happen. He provided the vision, the impetus, the funding, and the leadership.

That's why he gets (and deserves) the credit.

It's just like Apple. Apple floundered with CEO after CEO, winding up 90 days from bankruptcy. Then Jobs became CEO, and Apple became the richest company in the world.

With the same staff.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by monocasa on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:57PM (#27912080)
The Apollo program was about $120B in today's money all said and done. And that's with 1960's manufacturing processes. The complete Gemini program was about $10B.

Blue Origin is up to ~$10B already and hasn't even gone orbital yet.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:08PM (#27912201)
I googled "cost of Apollo program" and it comes to $257 billion in today's dollars.

Also, the economy was considerably smaller in those days, and so the Apollo program took up a much larger share of it.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by aylmao on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:53PM (#27913648)
> Also, the economy was considerably smaller in those days, and so the Apollo program took up a much larger share of it.

Isn't that what adjusting to today's dollars essentially does? Those $28 billion were back then what $257 billion are in today's economy.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:15PM (#27914534)
> Isn't that what adjusting to today's dollars essentially does?

To make it more obvious, a town council spending $1 million on a project is a much bigger undertaking (for them) than a country spending $1 million. It has nothing to do with inflation. I.e. consider it as percentage of GDP.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dboreham on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:10PM (#27914511)
No. I think parent means that the economy was smaller in real terms. E.g. the population was lower.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:15PM (#27914538)
I read somewhere that 400,000 people worked on the Apollo program.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by gameman144 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:14PM (#27914531)
Not quite:

The purchasing power of a dollar has grown ~8.5x over the past 60 years.

The US GDP has grown about 38x in that same time.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by monocasa on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:14PM (#27912286)
I've seen a lot of numbers, how about we go with Wiki's $156 and cut the difference?

And it doesn't matter what the rest of the economy was doing if we've converted it to today's numbers. The argument you were making was that government was intrinsically bloated, but from my view these private orgs are barely keeping up with 1960s .gov.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:13PM (#27912853)
Since you're leaving off half the cost, it does make the government bloat look slimmer :-)
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by TigeriusKirk on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:26PM (#27912434)
Why did the Apollo program stop?
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dboreham on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:10PM (#27914512)
Too expensive; had achieved goal.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by Hokusai on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @02:51PM (#27910419)
You are 100% right. A million people can own $1000 in a corporation, or 1 person can own $1,000,000,000. The company has the same capital but wealth is distributed differently.

Even if we needed big corporations, we still do not need billionaires.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:42PM (#27911880)
Countries without billionaires are mired in poverty. Billionaires can make high risk investments. A million people won't.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by trainsplanes on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:00PM (#27914466)
I mean, countries with high numbers of billionaires are as well. Going around many parts of the US and then looking at countries with more balanced wealth and there's a pretty stark difference. Poverty is much more visible in the US compared to many other developed countries.
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:59PM (#27912101)
Governments actually make the risky investments. From infrastructure to nukes to the internet to space travel to particle colliders to fusion. The governments that have made these investments are the ones that do the best job of representing the interests of millions of people.

If you take the limit of concentrating wealth, you get a dictatorship. They don't seem to do much. It's hard to believe in democracy and insane wealth concentration at the same time.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:26PM (#27912969)
> Governments actually make the risky investments.

Large investments are not the same as risky investments.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @08:07PM (#27913747)
Democratic governments make the largest and riskiest investments. I've provided quite a few examples in the last century. Do you have any evidence or theory as to the contrary?
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by gameman144 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:20PM (#27914555)
Democratic government could very well make the largest and riskiest investments, but I find it hard to believe that they make the most efficient investments.

Government need to get a job done, but they also need to appease voters and play politics to be able to achieve long-term goals. Businesses self-select for efficiency in the long-term, because those that aren't efficient go bankrupt or get overtaken by a more efficient upstart.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by ModernMech on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:50PM (#27914740)
When making long-term investments, it's often a bad idea to optimize for efficiency (if we want to measure efficiency as return on investment), because it's difficult to predict ahead of time which projects will work out the best in 10 or 30 years. Sometimes the best bets are the ones no one thinks will work out, and therefore no one wants to make.

I think PG has spilled a lot of ink about this in the context of VC investment, but the same idea doubly applies to government funding because their time horizons are even longer term. If all you do is optimize for next quarter, next year, or even the next 5 years, you're going to miss the things that at first seem innocuous or useless, but then in 30 years blow up into something huge.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Thursday July 22, 2021 @01:15PM (#27921584)
Actually the opposite. Just look at fundamental science research. The LHC cost $9B. Why didn't Bezos make his own instead of funding his 3rd rate rocket ride?
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:08PM (#27914503)
What's risky about building a highway?
Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by robryan on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:24PM (#27912950)
I think it makes sense in a limited way. Government can do a lot but struggles to make big bets and see them through in the way a single minded billionaire could. Maybe government could solve this is providing some bigger chunks of no strings attached funding under the direction of a single person.

NASA has been beholden to the latest administration’s whims and inconsistent budget allocation for decades.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @07:46PM (#27913598)
No billionaire's focus can even come close to matching a nation at war. In less than 25 years, governments went from realizing nukes were possible to creating an arsenal large enough to destroy civilization (1).

I think the great challenge of our generation will be a way to come together with such single minded focus to tackle problems without trying to exterminate each other.

(1) https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/atomic-bomb-hist...

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @06:24PM (#27912948)
> If you take the limit of concentrating wealth, you get a dictatorship.

Except that's never happened, not even close. Ironically, the modern activists are busy trying to force businesses into getting involved in politics unrelated to their business. This smacks of foolishness to me, as in be careful what one wishes for.

> It's hard to believe in democracy and insane wealth concentration at the same time.

Wealth in a capitalist country is created, not concentrated.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @08:02PM (#27913707)
Consolidation of money and power into the hands of a few people is most of the most prevailing trends in history. What do you think a king is? Or a conquerer? Or a Caesar? It strikes me as quite ignorant to posit that wealth and power has never been concentrated into any sort of autocracy. If anything, we live in a unique time and place where military power and financial power are so separated. It is our democratic institutions that enable us to have billionaires without autocracy. Erosion and stagnation of these institutions is the problem.

You also seem to completely abandon your previous statement: "Countries without billionaires are mired in poverty. Billionaires can make high risk investments. A million people won't." Additionally, you've responded to arguments I haven't even made about forcing businesses to be involved in politics.

Your ideas seem like a loose collection of conservative talking points and fail to make any sort of coherent argument.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:12PM (#27914520)
> Or a Caesar?

Caesar gained power through running a business providing people with wine?

> You also seem to completely abandon your previous statement

Not at all. It is obvious that people who became wealthy through force of arms or using taxation to line their pockets are in a different category.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by dumbfoundded on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:57PM (#27914803)
I'm not sure you really have a grasp of human history if you think money and force are separate things. That's only a very recent idea.

If you look at historical rankings of wealth, by far the richest people were leaders of great empires. They were so wealthy that it's silly to put it in modern terms (1) & (2). Caesar Augustus controlled the entire output of Egypt which was the breadbasket of the Mediterranean world. His person wealth is estimated to be in the $5 to $10 trillion range.

More recently, how rich was Stalin when he could literally do anything with an economy making up 10% of global GDP? It's even unclear how much Putin is worth with credible accusations that he recently built a $1B palace (3) and has a wealth in the $200B range.

It is only our recently invented democratic institutions that enable billionaires who profit from non-violent sources. I sincerely hope you develop a sense of how important these institutions are.

This is my last comment btw, I hope you feel like you've learned something.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_historical_...

(2) https://www.luxuo.com/the-lux-list/super-rich/richest-people...

(3) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56007943

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:31AM (#27916065)
> how rich was Stalin

Stalin didn't buy his way into power. He took power by force, then used that power to make himself rich.

This is not capitalism. As I pointed out, people who take money through force are in a quite different category.

> I hope you feel like you've learned something.

I'm dumbfounded that you believe that Stalin, Caesar, etc., were free market capitalists gaining their wealth through running a successful business.

> It is only our recently invented democratic institutions that enable billionaires who profit from non-violent sources.

None have yet turned that into running the country. Note how billionaire Bloomberg's presidential campaign failed miserably. As did Ross Perot's. Rich people in America have not had much of a track record of buying themselves into office, though elected representatives have a tendency to get very rich while in office. Hmmm...

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by Hokusai on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @04:57PM (#27912065)
A million people can invest $20 in high risk/high reward investments similarly to a venture capitalist, meanwhile investing $800 in some less risky investment.

Kickstarter exists.

Re:Bezos donates $100M each to CNN contributor Van Jones and... by WalterBright on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:05PM (#27912168)
Good luck doing a Kickstarter for an enterprise that will need billions in investment.