News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by tayloramurphy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:08AM (#27906493)
It's pretty frustrating how many OSS projects use Slack but there are no options available to pay for a discounted pro plan. We'd love to pay a flat-ish fee for the community but it creates a disincentive to grow. Their active user fair pricing helps a bit, but it's not great.
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by kissgyorgy on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:20AM (#27906632)
Please don't use Slack for open projects! It's a walled garden, search engines cannot index the content and registration is needed to even see the discussions.

What you put in there is basically closed from the public, complete opposit of openness.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by james_impliu on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:49AM (#27907061)
Controversial take: We found that we get better responsiveness from our open source community on Slack at PostHog, probably as our users have it open for work already and are used to posting without too much thought, whereas making a post on a forum feels like a higher barrier to entry. This feedback helps us improve the product. Would love something that extracts all the content and pushes it somewhere indexable though, as we often end up manually taking conversations and converting into github issues etc.
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by sillysaurusx on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:35AM (#27906848)
In fairness discord has this same problem, but saying “don’t create a discord or a slack for your community” is kind of… not really realistic.

Does matrix / someone else solve it? How?

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by tabbott on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:13PM (#27909077)
Zulip, which I lead, absolutely aims to solve this problem.

We provide our full Zulip Cloud Standard paid plan for free to open source projects (and various other worthy causes!). We also prioritize and build features specifically because OSS projects asked for them:

https://zulip.com/for/open-source/

Hundreds of open source projects, including Rust, Julia, MariaDB, and Clojure, use Zulip as their team chat platform. We often hear from large open source projects that they substantially prefer Zulip's topic-based model to the user experience in Discord or Slack, or that they found it made their open source community work. See for example these tweets from the last few weeks:

* https://twitter.com/mojavelinux/status/1409702273400201217

* https://twitter.com/ornicar/status/1412672302601457664

Also in contrast with open core products like Mattermost, Zulip is proudly 100% open source software. You can learn a bit more about Zulip's open source model here:

https://blog.zulip.com/2021/04/28/why-zulip-is-on-github-spo...

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by calebkaiser on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:45AM (#27906989)
Gitter seems to be indexable by search engines. My experience using it as part of open projects has been mixed—the UI isn't great and the notification system is, in my experience, unreliable—but if you're worried about your messages being discoverable, it might be up your alley.
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by keb_ on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:43AM (#27906962)
I'm also curious about this. Gitter.im (which now is integrated with Matrix) is also an option, but not as user-friendly as Discord. With Discord at least you have unlimited searchable chat history (which is invaluable for OSS communities, and one of the top reasons you should avoid Slack). However, I can see Discord removing this free luxury in the future...
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by KronisLV on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:45AM (#27906993)
Well, there are plenty of open solutions that you can self host.

Personally, i find Rocket.Chat ( https://rocket.chat/ ) to be simple enough to set up in a Docker container and have running as a passable alternative to Slack/Discord. There are downloadable clients as well. The only real downside I've seen is somewhat bad support for calls because their WebRTC implementation is still new and integrating with Big blue button or whatever else they offered is hard.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by phdelightful on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:02PM (#27908011)
Does Slack's terms of service allow for a plugin that can just export the contents of the Slack to a public site (like a mailing list archive)? Do Slack plugins have that kind of access?
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by tabbott on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:26PM (#27909271)
I lead the Zulip project.

I'm not sure about this detail of Slack's ToS. At a technical level, you can certainly export your data from a Slack (which is we implement https://zulip.com/help/import-from-slack); I imagine it's easy to write a tool to format and publish it.

FWIW Zulip maintains https://github.com/zulip/zulip-archive, which is a configurable API-based tool for creating a static HTML archive from a Zulip organization, with tooling to update it every few minutes. A lot of larger open projects use it. (We're also working on a native logged-out access feature with less janky formatting, which has a working PR that we need to integrate).

I suppose you could export your data from Slack, import it into Zulip, and then publish that using zulip-archive if you didn't want to write any code, but I'm sure the formatting would be better preserved if one avoided the "convert Slack markup to Zulip markup" step.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by nimbius on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:19AM (#27906621)
why not just run a mattermost server instead?

https://mattermost.com/

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by Narretz on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:38AM (#27906890)
One reason you already mentioned, you have to run it. Slack is run for you.
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by jasonblais on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @11:26AM (#27907576)
Hey, Mattermost PM here.

There is a hosted SaaS version of Mattermost as well. We don't have an established non-profit license for it yet, but you can contact community[at]mattermost.com and we'd be happy to discuss options.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by KronisLV on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @10:51AM (#27907083)
That's a good thing, though. Get a VPS for 5$ per month, set up LetsEncrypt and launch the software in a Docker container - and you will have to do very little administration.

Then no one can limit the messages that you can have in the chat or make you pay for many of the features or suddenly take the software away from you or make you have an outage due to external factors of any software vendor.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by PenguinCoder on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @11:02AM (#27907245)
Until you get spammed to hell, or the next vulnerability leaves your system broken, you're utterly owned. There's a lot more that goes into self administration then just "put a server up".
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by KronisLV on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @01:01PM (#27908896)
If updating a Docker tag every month or so after verifying that your backups are working is too hard, then it is probably indeed a better choice to rely on SaaS, however that line of thinking is dangerously close to falling into the trap of SaaSS: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...

And if you want automatic updates, then either use the :latest tag, use apt/yum/... packages with unattended upgrades or something like Snaps for Ubuntu. However, in my experience, updates should be done manually and only when you're ready to roll them back (unless there are non-breaking security updates which are only available for OSes most of the time).

As for spam, if you can't moderate your Discord or Slack Space, then the same will apply here, of course.

As for getting owned: if your passwords are simple enough to be guessed or you don't follow other best practices, then the same will apply both to SaaS offerings and the software you're hosting yourself. Basic common sense like not exposing DBs to the Internet and using your firewall to only expose the ports you want was assumed, but not explicitly pointed out in my post.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by marcellus23 on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @05:16PM (#27912314)
That's a lot of stuff to worry about and get right vs. just paying $XX a month for someone else to deal with it.
Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by KronisLV on Thursday July 22, 2021 @02:24AM (#27916017)
You know, that's a fair point.

On one hand, feeding a YAML file into a container orchestration solution takes care of some of those concerns, as does enabling VPS backups and using something like KeePass to generate passwords (which can also be used for everything else, should you so desire).

On the other hand, not everyone necessarily knows how to do that, or wants to do that. To that, i'll indeed concede.

It's just that claiming that these things are too hard for the average technically inclined person to do (regardless of whether they have 2 or 10 years of experience) leads to a mindset in which people rely on SaaSS for everything and never even learn how to run their own software, thus either paying too much for it (relative to the worth it provides them with), or just locking themselves into a particular vendor.

Lastly, by hosting your own software, you are a smaller target than the larger and more centralized SaaS platforms. If a large SaaS gets hacked, although unlikely, it will affect a large amount of people. If your own instance gets hacked, even if more likely (less visible to hackers, almost no gain to be had for hacking John Doe's Nextcloud instance, yet probably also easier to do), it will only affect the few people using it.

Re:Salesforce completes acquisition of Slack by lupire on Wednesday July 21, 2021 @12:47PM (#27908674)
please do that and sell a hosting service.