News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by coldcode on Sunday July 18, 2021 @12:25PM (#27874187)
NSO is clearly in the business of selling surveillance to foreign entities, and saying they vet people is nothing but smoke as there is zero actual evidence other than their blanket statements. If some government or other customer tells them they only attack terrorists, it's clearly easy to target anyone; how would NSO even know.

Also rather stupid was Apple's statement about their phones being secure, when its obvious there are zero days being sold to NSO instead of telling Apple. Everything is insecure these days, at some level.

If NSO paid people $1M for a zero day (I bet they don't say), and Apple/Google/etc paid $10K, who do you think gets the info.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by netsec_burn on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:17PM (#27874636)
It's not that cut and dry, ethics and legality are a concern for a lot of researchers such as myself that sell zerodays. In my experience the actual price difference between unethical and ethical outlets is up to 4x, not two orders of magnitude (10K vs 1M?). I can't speak for everyone of course, but even the other researchers I know refuse to sell to unethical buyers, money isn't a factor.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by sudosysgen on Sunday July 18, 2021 @04:02PM (#27876148)
You can almost assuredly sell exploits illegally/unethically for a serious amount if you have the right connections. We know that iOS zerodays have sold north of 2 million $.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by edoceo on Sunday July 18, 2021 @04:52PM (#27876563)
I don't know that. I can't find anything on G or DDG - can you point me towards some data/links?
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by sudosysgen on Sunday July 18, 2021 @05:18PM (#27876774)
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by edoceo on Sunday July 18, 2021 @06:41PM (#27877331)
Thank you!

Summary: Wired report is a $1M and Ars reports three, one at $2.5M - all paid by Zerodium. Wow.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by dannyw on Sunday July 18, 2021 @10:45PM (#27878753)
If you have a iOS/iCloud/Google 0day, you will absolutely fetch tens of millions from it assuming it's the real deal (reliable, etc).

Google, on the other hand, regularly pays white-hats something like $100k for "arbitrary access to contents of any Gmail content".

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zrth on Sunday July 18, 2021 @03:33PM (#27875883)
Can you give me a feeling for wat ethical buyers would be. I'd assume bug bounties and ZDI and similar. What else?
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by netsec_burn on Sunday July 18, 2021 @04:13PM (#27876251)
First and foremost, the original vendor is always the most ethical place to sell it. That's where you stand the best chance of having it fixed for affected users. Second to the vendor are third parties that report vulnerabilities to the vendor by selling early warnings as a service. I don't know if I would recommend ZDI, they provide zero guidance for what their payout ranges are. There are security companies that purchase zerodays to write about them for PR, which also fixes the issue. And finally there's selling it to branches of the US government with license restrictions and a blanket exclusion for the NSA.

Beyond those buyers, the lines start to blur (defense contractors, companies in countries allied with the US e.g. FVEY). I would not recommend it either. Unethical buyers have completely different interests. I know Zerodium for one is a terrible place to sell to (you may be a target), and anything that is sold to Crowdfense is likely to be used against American interests.

My take away advice is, you can choose between painting a target on your front or one on your back.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zrth on Monday July 19, 2021 @06:27AM (#27880935)
When you say "one could be targeted/painting an target on one self" what does this imply? Basically that some group, most likely a nation state actor might hack my systems in the hope to see what else i have and who i am selling to?

Or rather that when i cross the wrong broader in to the wrong country that i might disappear?

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by Aulig on Sunday July 18, 2021 @05:51PM (#27877009)
Who do companies like ZDI sell early warnings to? I don't quite understand how a vulnerability could be worth more to them than the vendor who could fix it (assuming they don't somehow abuse the vulnerability).
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by dannyw on Sunday July 18, 2021 @10:49PM (#27878775)
Because ZDI negotiate. As a bug bounty participant in the official programs, you aren't allowed to negotiate.

ZDI, on the other hand can say: "We want $10M for this iOS zero day, or we don't report it to you." And the process of negotiation goes back and forth, but the end result is, Apple will pay considerably more to ZDI than through the direct program.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zrth on Monday July 19, 2021 @06:22AM (#27880907)
Correct me if i am wrong. I think another reason why ZDI maybe could pay more is because they also have other paying customers that pay for IDS/IPS subscription.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by fossuser on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:24PM (#27874684)
Thanks for being one of the good guys.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by cblconfederate on Sunday July 18, 2021 @02:54PM (#27875441)
Part of their vetted list: Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Kazakhstan, Morocco, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates

It's as if they are vetting for the most authoritarian, human-rights-abusing, anti-free-press countries in the list. A peculiar vetting process indeed

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by Leparamour on Sunday July 18, 2021 @04:07PM (#27876193)
Their vetting process probably goes like this:

Question: How would you solve the Trolley problem?

Answer: By using more trolleys.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by pessimizer on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:21PM (#27877970)
Those are US and UK allies you're talking about.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by cblconfederate on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:40AM (#27880147)
Kazakhstan? Also, why does that matter
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by NMDaniel on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:56PM (#27878152)
This isn't very different from the West selling guns, tanks and police equipment to allied 3rd world countries. You hope they'll be used for good causes(preventing crime and terrorism) but knowing that these governments tend to be corrupt, you acknowledge the risk that these weapons will be used by bad elements too.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:32PM (#27874734)
> Also rather stupid was Apple's statement about their phones being secure

Apple has never made such a statement.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by commoner on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:44PM (#27874826)
> Apple has never made such a statement.

From the article:

> Apple said: “Security researchers agree iPhone is the safest, most secure consumer mobile device on the market.”

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:48PM (#27874854)
Exactly. It says nothing about their phones being secure. Only that they are more secure than their competitors.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by cblconfederate on Sunday July 18, 2021 @02:53PM (#27875425)
So it is fair to say that iPhones are insecure
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:41PM (#27878085)
No - that would obviously be just as false as claiming they are secure.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by cblconfederate on Sunday July 18, 2021 @08:43PM (#27878093)
they can't both be false
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Monday July 19, 2021 @10:23AM (#27882927)
Of course they can. They are categorical statements. The reality is not absolute.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by cblconfederate on Monday July 19, 2021 @01:49PM (#27885362)
by that logic, of course they can't. The statement that they can is categorical
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Monday July 19, 2021 @03:25PM (#27886364)
What you just said is gibberish because it ignores the context of what we are talking about.

You are imagining that computer security is absolute. A system cannot be 100% secure or 100% insecure. To claim either is obviously false.

Systems can be relatively more or less secure than other system.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by commoner on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:49PM (#27874868)
That's a stretch.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @01:55PM (#27874921)
No, it’s what they said.

Saying they claimed their phones to be secure is just a lie.

Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by commoner on Sunday July 18, 2021 @02:01PM (#27874971)
It's a stretch to argue that "safest, most secure consumer mobile device on the market" is not a claim of security. The average reader would not interpret that statement as you did, which makes the statement misleading.
Re:Leak uncovers global abuse of cyber-surveillance weapon by zepto on Sunday July 18, 2021 @04:07PM (#27876195)
> is not a claim of security.

It is a claim of relative security but it is a lie to say that Apple claimed their device is secure.

>The average reader would not interpret that statement as you did

I think most people can read the statement for what it is - a comparison to other devices on the market.