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Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by philipkglass on Thursday July 15, 2021 @03:17PM (#27848874)
Energy storage projects are typically described in terms of maximum power (megawatts) and hours of supply at peak power. Multiplying hours and megawatts gives megawatt hours, a unit of energy. Gigawatts and gigawatt hours are just different magnitude units for the same power and energy values, like meters and millimeters.

Most electrical grids experience peak demand in the early evening when people come home from work, turn on lights, cook dinner, etc. This peak period is usually on the order of 4 hours. This early evening period is also when solar output drops toward zero.

Energy storage projects in CA are currently generally provisioned for 2-4 hours of storage to ensure a good match to this daily evening demand peak and dropping solar output. Storage is still expensive so it doesn't make financial sense to add capacity that isn't going to be used most days.

Some of these projects publish detailed information about power and energy. Others just publicize power, but given what is known about the California market their energy capacity can still be estimated to a reasonable degree.

Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by danans on Thursday July 15, 2021 @03:37PM (#27849114)
> Gigawatts and gigawatt hours are just different magnitude units for the same quantities, like meters and millimeters.

I liken it more to distance vs speed. Power, like speed, is a rate, in particular the instantaneous rate at which energy is transferred.

Expressed using the same scheme we use for speed (distance per time : power per time), power is watt-hours per hour (or 0.0036 megajoules per hour).

I'm guessing we express power differently because James Watt codified the standard unit for power and the standard for electrical energy came from the time-integral of his definition of power.

Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by vondur on Thursday July 15, 2021 @04:54PM (#27850011)
This is what confuses many people, especially with solar and battery storage. "I've got 400 watts of solar feeding into my 400AH of batteries with a 3000w inverter" Most people will have no idea how much usable power they get and how much energy storage they need to meet their needs. (this example is mostly from an RV perspective)
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by danans on Thursday July 15, 2021 @05:18PM (#27850251)
In general, people are not used to formally separating power and energy as concepts, much less as units of measure.

This makes perfect sense because most of the measurements of things we own or consume are counted in units like area, volume, and energy, which are inherently more tangible than an instantaneous rate like "power". Speed is a bit of an exception to this, but I think that has to do with the ubiquity of speedometers in cars.

To the extent that people broadly understand power as distinct from energy they tend to do so in a mechanical, not an electrical context, and in less precise terms ("That's a powerful truck"). However, some exceptions to this are light bulbs and electric space heaters, where people generally understand power as being proportional to brightness and heat output.

In a way, it's an incredible testament to the engineering of electrical systems that people have been able to largely ignore the difference between power and energy, or just need to flip a circuit breaker if something exceeds a limit.

Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by Ajedi32 on Thursday July 15, 2021 @05:18PM (#27850253)
Amp hours is particularly annoying IMO because you can't convert it to energy without knowing the voltage.
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by imtringued on Thursday July 15, 2021 @06:13PM (#27850739)
The reason that battery capacity is measured in amp hours is that you can't know the exact voltage of the battery as it drops with lower levels of charge.
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by danans on Thursday July 15, 2021 @07:03PM (#27851129)
Newer large-capacity battery systems seem more likely to specify battery capacity in (k)Wh. I think this is because they come with sophisticated battery management systems that keep the battery within a narrow charge (20%-80%) range, so therefore they can be assured of the bounds of the voltage.

Also, Li-ion and LiFePO4 batteries have a much different discharge curve than earlier chemistries [1], with much more constant voltage up to 80% discharge.

1. https://www.powertechsystems.eu/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2...

Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by Ajedi32 on Thursday July 15, 2021 @08:05PM (#27851634)
If voltage drops with lower levels of charge, then so does the current (assuming a load with a constant resistance). Isn't that just another reason to use Watt hours instead?
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by danans on Thursday July 15, 2021 @05:45PM (#27850511)
> "Ive got 400 watts of solar feeding into my 400AH of batteries with a 3000w inverter"

Assuming 12V, that's about 400Ah*12V=4800Wh of storage. 4800Wh/400W = 12 hours to charge those, which seems reasonable for an RV. The thing that seems a bit oversized is the 3000W inverter.

Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by philipkglass on Thursday July 15, 2021 @03:39PM (#27849134)
I meant the "giga" units relative to their "mega" counterparts. Same physical quantities but multiplied by 1000.
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by danans on Thursday July 15, 2021 @04:13PM (#27849531)
Hmm, in that case your comparison should be from MW to GW, not GW to GWh, right?
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by philipkglass on Thursday July 15, 2021 @04:19PM (#27849596)
I referred to megawatts and megawatt hours in my first two sentences. "Gigawatts and gigawatt hours" was indicating counterparts to MW and MWh. Though apparently that grammatical construction was not as clear as I initially believed.
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by danans on Thursday July 15, 2021 @06:57PM (#27851080)
Ah, OK. Thanks for clarifying!
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by jeffbee on Thursday July 15, 2021 @03:39PM (#27849146)
Everything about these storage projects is available as public records from the CPUC, down to the site plan drawings.
Re:California breaks 1 GW energy storage milestone by philipkglass on Thursday July 15, 2021 @03:54PM (#27849327)
Thanks! I've been noticing these projects mostly from press releases that surface through Google News, and those don't always provide both numbers. It's good to know that there is a detailed source of open data.