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Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by hirundo on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:18PM (#27790292)
How do you wire up the “conscious-o-meter”? What would a function for mapping consciousness to a quantity look like? How about

  [thoughts, emotions, sensations]
    .sum { |p| p.frequency * p.complexity }
Collecting the data is left as an exercise for the student.
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by hliyan on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:15PM (#27790850)
I would suggest that consciousness is a faculty that is independent of thoughts, emotions or sensations. I can think of instances where I was aware of myself in the absence (or at least greatly reduced levels) of thought, emotion or sensations.

Perhaps the question is whether qualia [1] are binary or not. This is a question that is probably impossible to answer because there is nothing else to measure it with. To paraphrase Julian Jaynes, what's more immediate that immediate awareness itself?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by Razengan on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:57PM (#27790496)
You have to define “thoughts, emotions, sensations” and “complexity” first.

Pain, for example, counts as all 3, and some would say it’s simple while others might call it complex.

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by orange8 on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:16PM (#27790853)
Pain is strictly a physical sensation. It may however be triggered by thoughts or emotions. The three are rarely ever experienced in isolation.
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by amonavis on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:27PM (#27790894)
> Pain is strictly a physical sensation.

Hard to tell that to those with lost limbs who suffer from ghost pain.

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by orange8 on Saturday July 10, 2021 @12:31AM (#27791128)
Do not be fooled by the term "ghost". The pain is still real, and experts now agree it is coming from both the brain and spinal cord [1]. Just like optical illusions, the mind can play many tricks on us. Just because the pain feels like it is coming from a non-existent limb does not mean that that is where it is actually coming from.

1. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/phantom-pain/...

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by Razengan on Saturday July 10, 2021 @02:40PM (#27795479)
> the pain feels like it is coming from a non-existent limb does not mean that that is where it is actually coming from.

So uhh, what exactly is pain? Is it the feeling? Is it the physical damage? Is it a warning about damage? Is it the fear of damage (as in broken hearts etc.)?

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by orange8 on Saturday July 10, 2021 @10:46PM (#27798118)
I'm not a biologist or anything, but I'd define it simply as a signal from your nervous system to your brain.
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by Razengan on Sunday July 11, 2021 @08:07PM (#27805588)
So.. a thought? An emotion? Or a sensation?
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by EliRivers on Saturday July 10, 2021 @09:34AM (#27793260)
What does this even mean? If I can feel pain by thinking, what does it mean that pain is "strictly physical"?

If it means "there is a physical set of physical matter involved in the sensation of pain, be it pain nerves or just me thinking using my physical thinking apparatus", well then given that I'm made out of physical matter, what isn't strictly physical?

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by orange8 on Sunday July 11, 2021 @12:28AM (#27798476)
> If I can feel pain by thinking, what does it mean that pain is "strictly physical"?

It may help to look at it from a cause and effect perspective.

injury -> pain

thinking -> pain

feeling -> pain

thinking -> feeling + pain

pain -> feeling + thinking

...etc

Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by tayo42 on Friday July 09, 2021 @09:27PM (#27790324)
Integrated information theory has one attempt at actually measuring how conscious a system is. It calls it phi.
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by ta988 on Saturday July 10, 2021 @12:02AM (#27791012)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory Never heard of that before, thanks for the hint.
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by tayo42 on Saturday July 10, 2021 @03:13AM (#27791697)
no problem, the paper is actually not to bad either by the way.
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by erikhoel on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:06PM (#27790808)
I worked on that in graduate school :)
Re:Are animals more conscious than we are? by tayo42 on Saturday July 10, 2021 @03:14AM (#27791703)
thats pretty cool, id ask you some questions about it if you didn't mind but im not ready for the moment lol