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Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by handmodel on Thursday July 08, 2021 @06:10PM (#27778242)
I guess this is probably the story that gets repeated in places like HN which I agree is common.

However, if you ever talk to uber drivers or your waiters they will complain about how expensive California is. Or even people at parties who are in between jobs and thinking of moving to where they grew up. I guess in real life I just hear more people talk about the general cost of living argument than a than the specific anti-tech one.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by almost_usual on Thursday July 08, 2021 @07:03PM (#27778678)
> who are in between jobs and thinking of moving to where they grew up

I hear the opposite, people cannot afford where they grew up. Most people from the Bay Area aren’t working high paying tech jobs.

> I guess in real life I just hear more people talk about the general cost of living argument than a than the specific anti-tech one.

Anti-tech sentiment peaked in the early 2010s. Tech buses stopped being vandalized and the “die techie scum” thing mostly went away after 2015.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by handmodel on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:54PM (#27779727)
To clarify I am saying that some people on here are saying that California is anti-business/anti-tech and that is why people are moving out. I am saying the vast majority of people moving out of CA are just doing so because general cost of living isn't a great deal.

And almost by definition, if you move to California from somewhere else then "home" would be lower cost of living. Only exceptions are if you grew up in NYC, Boston, DC or a few other cities.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by seanmcdirmid on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:42PM (#27780266)
> Only exceptions are if you grew up in NYC, Boston, DC or a few other cities.

And pretty much all Hawaiian transplants.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by handmodel on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:04AM (#27780374)
Sure. But Hawaii is very small. Less than 0.4% of the US population. People have brought it up many times on this discussion thread.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by seanmcdirmid on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:07AM (#27780388)
If you live on the west coast, people fleeing the high COL of Hawaii is pretty common. Also Alaska. The west isn’t cheap, I think a lot of people would be surprised by prices in Montana (and not just because Californians are bidding up housing prices).
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by beckingz on Thursday July 08, 2021 @10:55PM (#27780064)
DC is pretty brutal some of the time. $$$
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by dragonwriter on Thursday July 08, 2021 @10:04PM (#27779765)
> And almost by definition, if you move to California from somewhere else then "home" would be lower cost of living. Only exceptions are if you grew up in NYC, Boston, DC or a few other cities.

Lots of California is cheaper than a lot more than just the few most expensive cities. California is not just the central cities of the Bag Area. Also, on a state level, HI has a higher cost of living than CA.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by handmodel on Thursday July 08, 2021 @10:16PM (#27779839)
California is the third highest cost of living state:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/most-expens...

Everyone knows that California is not just LA and SF. But also Florida isn't just Tampa/Miami and Arizona isn't just Phoenix.

The big cities in CA are more expensive than the big cities in other states. The rural areas in CA are more expensive than the rural areas in other states.

Pointing out that the rural areas in CA are cheaper than the cities in other states is not compelling.

And for the record, Hawaii is seeing net out-migration too. At least its excuse for low cost of living is the fact that its an island that has to ship everything in.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by strikhedonia on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:23PM (#27780203)
Your link doesn’t support your argument. California’s COL index will be dominated by the fact that it’s one of the nations most urban states, with two of the largest and wealthiest metro areas.

Indeed, my experience is that there are parts of CA that aren’t significantly more expensive than my Midwestern home state.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by handmodel on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:07AM (#27780390)
I'm not trying to be that annoying - but are you sure the cheap parts of CA are comparable to the cheap parts of your state?

The cheapest parts of CA are probably going to be as expensive as right outside a Cleveland or Pittsburgh.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by unishark on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:21AM (#27780688)
Certainly if one's goal is to live somewhere cheap while remotely-working at a high-paying tech company, you'd pay the highest state income taxes in California at the top bracket.

If we're just talking about random middle class (and below) people ability to retire in the same house they've lived in for decades, a few other states may be worse at the moment, e.g. NJ and CT and perhaps others raising property taxes fast. But the days of prop 13 protecting Californians from this same fate may not last forever.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by chipotle_coyote on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:31PM (#27780228)
Anecdotally as someone who's been doing some casual house-pricing over the last year around California, it is surprising how expensive a lot of the state -- including areas that were pretty cheap, in relative terms, just a few years ago -- has gotten for new home buyers. It's true that people kind of forget that there are cities outside the Bay Area and the LA Basin, but it's still dismaying how much a 1500 square foot, 3BR/2BA home that isn't of the manufactured variety is likely to set you back even in pretty remote towns in California.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by rcpt on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:44AM (#27780778)
Prop 13 is a huge incentive to park as much cash as possible in real estate and then never sell. Hugs market distortion. It's statewide.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by simfree on Friday July 09, 2021 @04:16AM (#27781525)
Even in Oregon places like Hood River, Veneta, Bend and such have seen home prices surge.

Areas of Washington State like Arlington have seen this as well, it's crazy to see a dated 4 bed 3 bath house go for $800k when it is not within even supercommuting distance of any high paying employees.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by dragonwriter on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:03AM (#27784395)
> Prop 13 is a huge incentive to park as much cash as possible in real estate and then never sell.

Or cash out for a retirement where you aren’t living someplace subject to Prop 13 effect on the market, which is what a lot retirees leaving CA do.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by unishark on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:09AM (#27780643)
Hawaii is not much of a defense as it has logistical reasons for its high cost, and anyway has a smaller total population than most major metro areas.

I'm not necessarily in the camp that thinks California isn't worth the cost. Though some undesirable location in the desert may indeed not be worth the taxes.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by dragonwriter on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:50AM (#27784952)
> Hawaii is not much of a defense

Since it is a place that people can come to California from, it is a very effective defense against the claim almost by definition, if you move to California from somewhere else then "home" would be lower cost of living.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by thebradbain on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:35PM (#27779317)
> Anti-tech sentiment peaked in the early 2010s. Tech buses stopped being vandalized and the “die techie scum” thing mostly went away after 2015.

While we're comparing anecdotal evidence, I live in Los Angeles and count among my peers many who work in the Hollywood/Media industry. I can assure you the general sentiment among them toward Big Tech is overwhelmingly negative. I work in tech (albeit not a large company) and even I tend to agree.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by saltcured on Thursday July 08, 2021 @08:43PM (#27779374)
I am guessing that the previous post is about the S.F. Bay Area anti-tech backlash peaking in early 2010s. I also think that the people who were expressing that backlash would not distinguish so much between Big Tech and Hollywood/Media. I think the peak after 2010 has more to do with economic stress following 2008 and the glaring wealth inequality.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by xwdv on Thursday July 08, 2021 @09:04PM (#27779489)
A lot of this negative big tech sentiment isn’t backed by anything rational, it’s the same middle school or high school mentality of beating up nerds.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by sidlls on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:44AM (#27782668)
No, it's not. First, most "big tech" aren't nerds in the sense you mean, and they act more like the "cool kids" bullies in those movies than nerds. Second, the negative sentiment has more to do with wealth inequality and all that brings than any such petty rivalry as you describe.

Also to be quite honest software engineers aren't as smart or nerdy as they think they are in general. Very arrogant and egotistical, though, for sure.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by ramphastidae on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:03AM (#27780362)
I believe the primary reason for anti-tech sentiment in SF is gentrification: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification_of_San_Franci...
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by solveit on Thursday July 08, 2021 @07:46PM (#27778966)
Depends where you're looking. If you look online, anti-tech sentiment has never been stronger. These are of course, very different groups of people we're talking about.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by malshe on Thursday July 08, 2021 @10:47PM (#27780027)
I live in Texas and I whenever I go to California, I find it super expensive too! I am a unifier site professor and my salary is not very different from the professors in CA (State university salaries are public). I don’t know what is keeping those professors there.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by rpearl on Friday July 09, 2021 @12:37AM (#27780521)
This very much disagrees with you: https://www.aaup.org/sites/default/files/AAUP-2021-SurveyApp...

A sampling of average overall salaries for professors:

- UC Berkeley (ie bay area): $214,300

- UCLA: $234,200

- UT San Antonio: $130,900

- UT Dallas: $169,500

So an average Berkeley professor makes more than half again as much as an average UT San Antonio professor. And 25% more than UT Dallas.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by vel0city on Friday July 09, 2021 @02:01AM (#27780851)
You're forgetting income taxes and then add CoL on top of that. Sure you're making gross more but that $214k turns to ~$140k after taxes while that Texas $169k turns into ~$126k. So closer to a difference of about $14k. Then think that housing is way cheaper, gas is almost half the price, electricity can easily be had for 7c/kWh in DFW, etc. I just filled up this afternoon for $2.49/gal, what does gas cost out there these days, $4.60/gal?

In the end I imagine the prof at UTD could easily have more cash at the end of the month than the prof at UC Berkeley.

UTSA is such a small school it really shouldn't even be compared to UC Berkeley or UCLA.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by jjeaff on Friday July 09, 2021 @07:22AM (#27782544)
Many CA universities have housing programs for professors to offset the higher cost of living that i don't think show up in those salary averages.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by vel0city on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:40AM (#27784139)
Interesting, I see that here:

https://www.ucop.edu/loan-programs/loan-programs/frap/index....

It doesn't really say what percentage of professors get this assistance or how much that assistance is typical in the end.

Faculty housing rates at UCLA:

https://portal.housing.ucla.edu/faculty-housing/faculty-hous...

So pretty much >$2k and up to $5,427/mo for housing costs. And that's supposed to be somehow more affordable than the surrounding area? For a 2bdr apartment its >$500/mo more than my mortgage + insurance on a four bedroom home with a pool purchased recently. For the condos, that's a few grand a month more. Compared to $1,400/mo average rent immediately surrounding UTD. Rent can be found for <$850/mo in Richardson, only 42-70% of the cost. And that's without having a small commute and living in a cheaper part of DFW, as Richardson's real estate isn't exactly a cheap part of town.

That would have to be a pretty good-sized stipend to offset that cost. Also it speaks volumes that a professor making >$40k gross more needs to then also have a housing stipend to make the actual take home close to the person making >$40k less.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by malshe on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:17AM (#27783892)
Texas A&M professors might be keeping more than even a UCLA prof! College Station is a tiny town.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by vel0city on Friday July 09, 2021 @11:00AM (#27784363)
Yeah, right? The Texas A&M prof can probably afford a good-sized house, own and operate multiple cars, and still save more cash at the end of the month than a prof at UCLA living in a studio and not owning a car despite making ~$100k less gross income.

I remember taking a hard look at some job offers around SF, relocating from DFW. Crunching the numbers I would have needed well more than twice my current salary to have my savings rate be the same and I'd still be downsizing my housing a good bit.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by malshe on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:10AM (#27783821)
Others have pointed out critical problems in your comparison. Clearly, you can't cherrypick the best universities in CA and compare them to second-best in TX. UTSA is not even an R1 university. Generally when people talk about top universities in TX, they refer to UT Austin and Texas A&M. In any case, neither UC Berkeley nor UCLA is a good representative of CA universities.

A major issue in looking at the averages at the entire university level like this is that you might be comparing apples to oranges. There are typically three ranks among research professors: assistant, association, and full. These positions can additionally have chairs. The salaries differ considerably across these ranks. Then there are teaching positions which are usually non tenure track. They may also have the same assistant, associate, and full professor positions but their salaries are much lower than the research professors. AAUP appendix has combined all of them into one single category.

Finally, this survey masks the salary differences among different disciplines. In American universities, B-school professors typically earn way more than other disciplines such as pure sciences, psychology, and engineering.

When we do salary comparisons (we have to do it while negotiating a raise), we pick out colleges/schools that are similarly ranked as ours and then we take average salaries of professors at the same position. As I mentioned, the salaries are public so this is possible although quite tedious.

Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by unishark on Friday July 09, 2021 @01:29AM (#27780719)
I'd suspect CA pays somewhat better, though it'd be countered to a degree by the high number of academics preferring to live in CA. But either way, Berkeley and UCLA versus UTSA and UTD? Are the latter two even ranked in the top 100? Berkeley has the 2nd most nobel prize winners in the US behind Harvard. UCLA has a solid number too.
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by malshe on Friday July 09, 2021 @10:15AM (#27783877)
I agree, it is a non starter. In any case I was not comparing average TX university salaries to just two universities in CA
Re:California exodus is a myth, UC research project finds by Ar-Curunir on Thursday July 08, 2021 @11:35PM (#27780243)
Better weather, better universities, slightly better politics, and more