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Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by likecarter on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:17AM (#27711807)
Yeah, let’s only focus on the production problem. There is totally no demand for oil or plastics. I assume you are typing this on a laptop or cellphone that has plastic parts.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by epistasis on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:21AM (#27711862)
What does the necessity of the product have to do with malfeasance and unethical behavior?

I assert that we can produce plastics without conducting massive deception campaigns that threaten the very future of our economy, the survival of many cities and states, and mass migration across the globe to adapt to new climate.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by andrewmutz on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:54AM (#27712298)
Climate change has been widely known and understood for decades.

It is convenient to blame the oil companies, but the fault lies in all of us who live in a democracy but did not prioritize regulating carbon emissions.

If you doubt that it is our fault, look at the recent Swiss referendum that failed:

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/swiss-voters-decide-pest...

It was a referendum in a well educated, first world nation, in 2021 and they could not muster the willpower to solve the problem.

The problem is not the oil and gas companies, it is all of us.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by the-dude on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:45AM (#27712997)
The Swiss referendum was discussed at the time here on HN, and the Swiss citizens who commented on it said it was a thinly veiled tax hike and not much more.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by gruez on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:48AM (#27713039)
What's the difference between a "veiled tax hike", and raising money to fight climate change?
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by pjc50 on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:33AM (#27712028)
There's plenty of demand for opiates too, and somehow Purdue Pharma was held accountable for what they did in meeting that demand - and creating it.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by whoooooo123 on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:05AM (#27712456)
> There's plenty of demand for opiates

Not nearly as much as there is for energy

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by Balero on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:14AM (#27712577)
So if we can bump up the demand for opiates that would make it ok?
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by quickthrowman on Friday July 02, 2021 @01:28PM (#27714331)
No. Opiates make a person feel really good, fossil fuels enable modern society. I assume you see the difference now.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by likecarter on Friday July 02, 2021 @12:11PM (#27713368)
The difference is people are complaining about fossil fuels as they use them.

Be the first, and give up all modern medicine, modern technology, plastics, etc. Nothing wrong with innovating out of fossil fuels, but you just seem to be pointing blame.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by KozmoNau7 on Saturday July 03, 2021 @01:53PM (#27723450)
What choice do we have, realistically? How would you even opt out?

Everything carries a fossil fuel burden with it, the change cannot come from individuals.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by minikites on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:17AM (#27711814)
So you can't criticize society if you participate in society? Interesting.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by beaconstudios on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:21AM (#27711863)
You can't build a society on oil and gas and then, now that we're experiencing the side effects, just be mad at the companies that provided this service. We all participated in this process.

Apportioning blame isn't even particularly useful compared to just fixing the problem.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by epistasis on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:24AM (#27711907)
We most certainly can be mad at them for intentionally deceiving the public and shareholders.

It's one thing to provide a product honestly. It's another to provide a product dishonestly. This entire post is about the dishonesty, so just forgetting about that dishonesty and not addressing is seems odd.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by likecarter on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:27AM (#27711946)
You really think them being honest would change anyone’s usage of fossil fuels? Hell, oil companies are transparent about climate change now, and usage is still going up YOY. Only now that we are experiencing greater effects of climate change, everyone is jumping on half-solutions like electric cars - let’s not even get started on the ecological footprint of batteries.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by epistasis on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:50AM (#27712236)
So you think the O&G went on a massive, expensive, coordinated disinformation for fun, and without the intention of increasing fossil fuel usage?

Why would executives put themselves at risk for nothing? Why would they spend so much money for nothing? Why lie if the lie doesn't benefit them?

The truth is that these disinformation campaigns to this day are killing our transition away from fossil fuels. They have spawned a political movement that is far more extreme than the publicly stated opinions of the fossil fuel companies.

One prime example of this disinformation campaign is repeated by you:

> let's not even get started on the ecological footprint of batteries.

This myth that batteries are somehow worse than fuel is exactly the type of disinformation that fossil fuel companies manufacture and that others spread, seemingly willingly, because of their tribal politics motivations. You don't know the footprint of batteries for electrical cars. It's certainly no worse than what we use to make the rest of a car. I've spent hours combing the web for concrete ecological impacts. The only concrete thing anybody talks about are not ecological, but social. Indigenous people in South America not getting compensated for their land. Cobalt mining from artisanal, unaccounted mines using child labor. But the ecological footprint is a tiny shadow of all the steel, copper, etc. that goes into al the rest of society.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by likecarter on Friday July 02, 2021 @12:05PM (#27713274)
> You don't know the footprint of batteries for electrical cars. It's certainly no worse than what we use to make the rest of a car.

Have you heard of open-pit mines? I would call the ecological damage of that much higher than a comparable oil drilling site.

I have nothing against electric vehicles, or progress away from CO2 emitters. But EVs are a half-backed solution.

And EVs might even be net-negative for climate change. What do you think mining equipment runs on? A shit-ton of diesel. The largest cost of a gold mine is energy - diesel. I just think the mental gymnastics people use to justify the smaller ecological impact EVs is ridiculous. Heck, I even own a Tesla.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by epistasis on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:07PM (#27719045)
I've heard of open pit mines, but they are generally used for existing technology that lithium will replace, for example coal. Lithium tends to be mined with brines.

You have a huge bias against EVs, you call them a "half-baked solution" without any qualifications. This is a very subjective judgement that is contradicted by the large number of EVs that are replacing every day usage for people, for commuting and road trips and every aspect of life that requires a vehicle.

It's beyond ridiculous to claim that EVs be a net negative for climate change. Even the fossil fuel PR machine isn't so bold to make such ridiculous counterfactua claims. At least the people paid to lie for fossil fuel companies say that it takes until many tens of thousand is miles until an EV makes up is carbon impact, but even that is a bald-faces lie.

So I'm short, you are manufacturing ridiculous claims, without any substance, that force people to deal with extra BS and counter your lies in the public sphere. Your comments here are a drain on the discussion, fact free accusations without any merit that you are using to naysay EVs and simultaneously out of the other side of your mouth say that you have nothing against them and even own one.

This is classic FUD from the old days. If you are not paid for your efforts, you are underselling yourself. Spreading such misinformation earns many people a paycheck.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by likecarter on Saturday July 03, 2021 @10:47AM (#27721936)
You attack me for not providing statistics when your crux is “People buying EV cars must mean they’re good”. Yeah, people buying Gamestop must mean it’s good too. Clown.

It’s widely known the environmental impact of EVs. If you want to make a real difference, look elsewhere.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by epistasis on Saturday July 03, 2021 @02:39PM (#27723752)
I attack you for not providing statistics, and merely fabricating FUD.

If I am mistaken, please point out the statistic, or any concrete real world damage that is worse than the alternative.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by burkaman on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:06AM (#27712465)
Why did they put so much effort into lying if it didn't matter?
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by refurb on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:27AM (#27711944)
When will tech’s reckoning come? Social media’s negative influence and incitement of violence? When we will start throwing engineers in prison who built these products knowing what they do?
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by minikites on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:32AM (#27712014)
Hopefully soon, but I'm not optimistic about that group ever facing consequences either.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by epistasis on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:52AM (#27712268)
Tech is bad, but it gets held to a far higher standard than fossil fuel companies. It doesn't take much digging to find far worse direct human death from fossil fuel companies, instead of the second-degree human death from social networks.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by fallingknife on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:01AM (#27712390)
Probably sometime after the printing press reckoning comes. Because it facilitated the same thing and is equally dumb to blame for how people use it.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by pessimizer on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:32AM (#27712021)
So if I live in a city with a corrupt water department, I 1) can't complain about it because I drink water, and 2) should realize the real problem is the concept of corruption, not punishing the corrupt.

We punish the corrupt in order to make the decision to be corrupt in future more expensive for the people considering it. A culture of total impunity doesn't help with "the problem."

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by beaconstudios on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:39AM (#27712090)
I'm not talking about corruption, but the poster above seemed mad that the oil companies made us use oil, beyond just being angry about the oil companies' corrupt practices.

If you drink water from a corrupt company, by all means try to get the corruption fixed but don't blame them that we live in a water based society.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by KptMarchewa on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:09AM (#27712503)
>oil companies made us use oil

They also actively lie about oil usage effects on environment, and lobby governments to not only to allow them to continue destruction, but also give them subsidies for it.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by beaconstudios on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:13AM (#27712568)
They should be punished for misleading people, of course, if we can show that it was done knowingly - which I can imagine it was.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by Rioghasarig on Friday July 02, 2021 @04:15PM (#27716321)
Nah, man. This "we all did this" is just not true. Power is not equally distributed among people. A few people in charge of oil and gas companies have more power to affect the state of affairs than thousands of normal people. So, no, I do not buy that "it's everyone's fault".
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by beaconstudios on Friday July 02, 2021 @04:31PM (#27716513)
We all use fossil fuels and derived products. It's not easy to replace those things with something more environmentally friendly even now that governments are getting involved.
Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by wanda on Friday July 02, 2021 @10:26AM (#27711930)
What the parent is saying is that as long as there is legal demand for a substance, the supplier is not the only one to be held accountable. Oil and gas conglomerates emerged and flourished because they met the demand of society.

If the demand was irresponsible, then someone has failed to act in addition to the suppliers who are essentially just looking to capitalise on an opportunity in a socio-economic system where to succeed is to capitalise on any legal, available opportunity.

Governing bodies have known for decades that the consumption of fossil fuels was both unsustainable and detrimental to the health of the environment.

And yet no consequential action has been taken, for a number of understandable, yet ultimately wrong reasons.

Governments will argue that the technology wasn't there yet to make a transition away from fossil fuels, but money could have been invested to ensure that it was there.

Skip to today, one may retort that the technology is here now, and when governments are reticent and continue to drag their heels — that is perhaps when shadier motivations behind executive inaction emerge.

I do not speak as an environmentalist by any means, my net contributions to encouraging social change in this regard are practically zero, I've never made the effort.

But over the years I have been alive I have seen this problem growing and the debate becoming increasingly protracted and increasingly unhelpful.

The time for debate, inquiry and questions of accountability is not now, as this process will simply result in the burial of the actual problem facing our species and, realistically, very little punitive action against the most significant culprits.

Indeed, what point is there in trying to point the finger at suppliers meeting demands and governments seeking to remain in government by giving people what they want? It's a problem to which the solution is political suicide that any subsequent regime can likely overturn.

Like financial crises, no one supports change until the proverbial shit hits the fan. This is partially because the general population do not understand the nature or severity of the problem, the timescale, or even believe the problem exists. I would argue that this is not accidental — lots of powerful institutions and people have undoubtedly had a hand in making sure the populace do not understand or take an active interest in problems like environmental and financial crises.

This is because the existence and power of these institutions and people would be threatened by a shift in the status quo.

The time for decisive action was at least a decade ago, but there's no harm in starting now — it just means that the transition to alternative energy sources must be more abrupt and more investment must be allocated to remedial technologies that can work towards undoing at least some portion of the damage we have done to our biosphere.

Let historians and the next generations worry about whose fault it was. It is more important to secure for the next generation a sustainable and habitable future, than it is to look back at past hubris and wonder where it went wrong.

Re:The scientists hired by big oil who predicted the climate... by extr on Friday July 02, 2021 @11:33AM (#27712826)
I think you've hit on the heart of the issue here. Framing the issue as if there is some kind of ethical/moral obligation to refrain from utilizing fossil fuels is completely nonsensical. As you said, when you have a legal, available profit opportunity in our economic system, you take it. If you don't, someone else will. Blaming the people who "got there first" is like blaming Samuel Colt for all gun violence. Our system by design operates at the lowest-common-ethical-denominator.

If you want to change it, you need to change the economic incentives of the all the actors involved. This includes straightforward measures that are already exist but need to be tuned up, like forcing them to recognize the negative externalities they introduce through operation more directly (carbon tax).

Of course, to the extent those actors have tried to downplay or mislead the general public as to the extent of those negative externalities, they have full culpability I'm happy to condemn them for that. But let's not pretend they are immoral for simply existing.