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Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by wolverine876 on Monday June 28, 2021 @04:49PM (#27667901)
The court says that the FTC didn't factually establish that Facebook has sufficient market power to qualify as a monopoly (as I understand it).

In a certain market, Facebook + Instagram have great market power, but it depends on how you define the market. I'm curious if anyone has done it, maybe financial analysts, and how they define it:

* If the market includes public messaging, such as Twitter, then Facebook's power is relatively much diminished.

* If the market includes public forums, such as Reddit, HN, and every phpBB board, then it's hard to say Facebook controls monopoly power.

* LinkedIn provides similar service to professionals

* Where does Pinterest fit? TikTok?

Part of the problem is that Facebook competes in all these markets. In which one(s) do they have a monopoly and how are they defined? 'Personal user page + social communication'?

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by jdgoesmarching on Monday June 28, 2021 @05:35PM (#27668495)
This whole conversation becomes a lot easier if we realize that two things can be true:

1. Facebook has an uncomfortable level of power in advertising, eyeballs on screens, and proprietary data

2. Legals definitions that were created over 100 years ago mostly focused on price gouging are not going to address this neatly

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by LanceH on Monday June 28, 2021 @05:57PM (#27668743)
The whole conversation is a lot easier if you just define Facebook as a monopoly.

#1 is assuming the argument, really. #2 is stating that old law doesn't work and implying we need new law to let us do what we want...again, assuming there is a problem, making no attempt to determine whether there is a legal problem

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by blsapologist42 on Monday June 28, 2021 @06:53PM (#27669353)
It's not the job of the judiciary or the FTC to create new laws. If Facebook is not violating current laws there's nothing for them to do, it would require new legislation.
Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by julienb_sea on Monday June 28, 2021 @09:20PM (#27670534)
Point 1 is a dubious complaint. There are other companies with significant presence in "advertising, eyeballs on screens, and proprietary data". Facebook is far from having a monopoly on this. Furthermore, it is far from clear what demonstrable consumer harm is taking place as a result of this "uncomfortable level of power".

To point 2: monopolistic behavior resulted in consumer harm and clear negative impacts on the wider economy. The original laws have been reinterpreted for a variety of modern cases (see - antitrust case against Microsoft).

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by gautamdivgi on Monday June 28, 2021 @05:24PM (#27668345)
Facebook doesn't have a "market" in messaging or social networks. To be fair they don't sell messaging or social space.

Facebook's "market" is advertising in which it isn't the leader.

I guess it would be hard to prove a monopoly on something you don't even sell.

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by lvzwilson on Monday June 28, 2021 @10:33PM (#27671058)
One needs not "sell" anything to have a market share. For example, Google's market share in general search services can be defined as the number of queries made on Google as a share of all queries made on general search engines. Facebook's market share in messaging could be defined in terms of messages sent. That would of course be difficult to measure, but nonetheless that is still a framework to think about market share in messaging.
Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by grayhatter on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @01:40AM (#27672214)
> messages sent...

do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior email :D

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by darkwizard42 on Monday June 28, 2021 @07:09PM (#27669506)
I don't disagree, but just because something isn't sold for >0 money doesn't mean it isn't in the market. Google is very much in the "search" market even if they do not make revenue directly from you the end customer making the search.

Giving something away for free and monetizing something else still means you are in that market.

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by cblconfederate on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:01AM (#27672339)
> Facebook's "market" is advertising in which it isn't the leader.

What are the alternatives for social ads? Google is a different kind of ad service , kind of like billboards vs tv

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by celestialcheese on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @02:58AM (#27672729)
Twitter, Quora, Reddit, LinkedIn, StackOverflow, Youtube, etc.

Google's display ad offerings may not be directly social, but their Adx and Adsense ads are shown across most forums and long-tail social channels, including Reddit and StackExchange. Lots of competitors in the social ad space.

Facebook is large, and might be the largest, but it's not fair to say that Google is an entirely different type of service. Hell, Google even offers native ads a la Facebook through their "Discover" ad product which serves across all their various social feed channels like Gmail, Youtube, and Discover feeds.

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by gamblor956 on Monday June 28, 2021 @05:14PM (#27668242)
No, the court says the FTC didn't allege that Facebook has sufficient market power to qualify as a monopoly. Factual determinations come later in the process.

The court dismissed the pleading document (the initial complaint) due to its inadequacies but not the case itself, which means that the FTC can file a new complaint with more detailed allegations.

The rough order of civil procedure: the complaint, where the plaintiff(s) makes allegations of fact and law about the defendant party (or parties). This is followed by discovery, where the actual fact-gathering occurs, then usually a motion for summary judgment adjudicated on the facts acquired during discovery, and finally, a trial on the merits (unless the parties settle first).

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by wolverine876 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @12:28AM (#27671765)
Thanks. I'm glad I included a caveat about my understanding! To be clear, are you an attorney?
Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by gamblor956 on Tuesday June 29, 2021 @04:11PM (#27681107)
Yes, though with the caveat I no longer do civil litigation.
Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by fallingknife on Monday June 28, 2021 @05:09PM (#27668175)
If the WhatsApp merger is in question, the FTC would have to define the market very broadly. I don't think there is any case to be made that FB has monopoly power over the messaging market, so I don't think they are likely to succeed.
Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by huitzitziltzin on Monday June 28, 2021 @09:51PM (#27670744)
Your comment gets to the heart of the issue in cases like this and related horizontal merger cases: how broad is the market?

If Facebook convinces the judge to accept a broad market definition, game over for the FTC.

If the FTC convinced the judge of the reverse, bad news for Facebook.

The judge has basically told the FTC that they did a terrible job exactly on the market definition issue. This is a big problem for them.

I also don’t see why a judge wouldn’t accept something like “online communications platform” as being the right market in this case. Then all of the players you list are plausible competitors and the FTC’s job becomes much harder (or IMO impossible).

Re:Judge dismisses FTC and state antitrust complaints agains... by dragonwriter on Monday June 28, 2021 @09:59PM (#27670805)
> I also don’t see why a judge wouldn’t accept something like “online communications platform” as being the right market in this case

Because lots of things that could be described as “online communication platforms” are probably fairly simply demonstrable to not participate in competitive substitution, and as such arr not direct contributors. I mean, HN is an online communications platform, and so is GMail, but if service on HN is bad, I don’t think people move from HN to Gmail.