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Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by jart on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:19AM (#27631887)
Could someone ELI5 to me what KPI even stands for? Does that mean like they're like the shock troopers of open source?
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by NikolaNovak on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:28AM (#27631997)
KPI = Key Performance Indicator = "thing we decided is important for us to measure and increase"

As such exactly what it is, will depend on company/industry/market/team/project/etc. It may be revenue or units sold or widgets made or turnover or customer satisfaction or days without accident etc. In principle, it communicates to teams what is important to business and helps everybody focus and sync.... with usual real-world caveats and implementation risks.

I imagine here, for a large-company linux team, a "KPI" was "how many commits you made" - they measure it, they track it, and reward/recognize/punish team members based on it. So people start working toward increasing the KPI in any feasible way - if you only want me to increase the KPI of commits done, OK, fine, I'll do some commits.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by falcor84 on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:09PM (#27635634)
>thing we decided is important for us to measure and increase

This is a great explanation, and I just wanted to nitpick that for some KPI's (e.g. percentage of defective components, or latency), you would aim to "decrease" the KPI, and in some rare instances, you'd want to keep the KPI within a range (e.g. resource utilization, or inventory size, when you want a predefined amount of buffer).

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by alxlaz on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:30AM (#27632042)
KPI = Key Performance Indicator. It's basically a list of things that are considered during your evaluation. The more items off that check list you cross (if they're one-time items, like "ensure an uptime of X"), or the more of each you do (if they're things like "upstream patches" or "patents granted"), the better your score is.

It's a shit system that does exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to do IMHO, but that kind of stuff doesn't belong in an ELI5 explanation :-D.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by lmilcin on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:45AM (#27632216)
KPIs are not a shit system, they are actually important to running any nontrivial organization.

The issue isn't whether KPIs are good or bad but what you do with them.

KPIs don't need to be tied to actual people, usually they are tied to teams, systems, projects, processes, etc.

For example, a number of users resigning from our services might be a KPI.

KPIs are an important tool to understand what is going on and whether we are going in the desired direction or not and to communicate this to your teams.

KPIs are a tool for telling your organization what you think is important, to set the incentives in the right direction.

KPIs will not help you if you have no effing idea how to set incentives -- they are just a tool in case you know what you are doing.

Because they are just one step from being a target for your teams, you need to be very careful to communicate what you mean exactly when you set KPIs.

Now, if you make number of users resigning from your services a KPI, you immediately need to set some additional guarantees that this is not overused -- for example by making it difficult for your clients to resign. This might be another KPI (user satisfaction with regards to how easy it was for them to resign).

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Clewza313 on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:53AM (#27632331)
Goodhart's law: when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.

Humans are extremely good at gaming KPIs, and will do so as long as they're rewarded for it.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by lmilcin on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:58AM (#27632409)
Overuse law. If you overuse a law too much it stops being meaningful.

Organizations have hard time improving without measuring their performance and communicating incentives.

There isn't magical solution you can scribe on a paper and tell everybody -- this is exactly what you need to do to achieve success.

The best what you can do is compromise, it is unavoidable.

So we know setting targets can make wrong incentives. It is also not a reason to not be setting targets. It is a reason to make sure you damn set those incentives right and take close look that you are getting what you have intended.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Tainnor on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:57PM (#27633377)
The point they're trying to make is, I believe, that metrics shouldn't be targets. In a sense I think that this is obvious to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of applied statistics.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by dragonwriter on Friday June 25, 2021 @06:45PM (#27637172)
> The point they're trying to make is, I believe, that metrics shouldn't be targets.

Metrics are either (1) targets or (2) things that you are trying to analyze in relation to the metrics that are targets or (3) a waste of the time you spent gathering them.

The reason metrics are often bad when they become targets is the metrics arr usually not actual direct measures of goals, but things assumed to be convenient proxies, but when you push hard on optimizing them, they stop being good proxies because as well as being easier to measure than the real objective, once you pick any low-hanging productive fruit they are inevitably easier to improve in ways that don’t improve the real objective as much as the proxy (or at all, or which negatively impact it.)

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by dtech on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:24PM (#27633763)
You can't have a (semi-objective) target without a metric.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Tainnor on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:31PM (#27633849)
What you want to measure and what you actually can measure are usually very distinct things, that's where "operationalization" comes in.

You have a target that you can't measure directly, hence you measure a proxy. That only works for as long as people don't game it and aim for the proxy instead of the actual target. Also, in addition, at least in research every statistician worth their salt knows that their proxy is not the actual thing and only their best effort at approximating it, hence in good studies, limitations of the methodology are extensively discussed.

Importantly, the moment you realise that your proxy is being gamed, you need to switch proxy.

I think this is only one example of this annoying trend of pretending to be "data-driven" by coopting numbers and fancy statistics without also adopting everything we know about uncertainty and how we can quantify it. "Data" in many businesses often implies a level of clarity ("look, the graph always goes up") that often does not actually exist and I suspect that this can be hard to understand for certain types of managers.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by ghaff on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:53PM (#27635462)
As someone who is periodically involved with this sort of thing, the challenge is that far and away the easiest things to objectively measure are almost always output metrics: commits, blog posts, external presentations at conferences, etc.

Output metrics chosen correctly also tend to represent things that the team/person has a reasonable degree of control over. For example, a developer KPI probably shouldn't be number of new customers because that's something they have vanishingly little control over, especially at an individual level.

The problem is that those things that a number of different teams are contributing to are probably the thing that the company cares about.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by andrey_utkin on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:36PM (#27635286)
IMHO to not be gamed, management needs to operate on a conceptual level which is similarly sophisticated, or surpasses in sophistication, the conceptual level of the employees (or suppliers).

If there's a single KPI and all the reward is tied to that without any balance, sure that will be gamed.

But if there is a well-defined, appropriately complex reward function aligned with the utility of whatever the organization delivers to the outer world, I would consider that a positive.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by croes on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:00PM (#27635529)
Rather Marilyn Strathern's rephrasing.

The original quote is

"Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes."

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by shkkmo on Friday June 25, 2021 @12:17PM (#27632711)
Which would indicate that the issue is not using KPIs to understand how your business is performing, but providing incentives based on KPIs.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Ericson2314 on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:28PM (#27633812)
This is trite. Just about any way of understanding something is going to create perverse incentives. Keeping the metrics secret has other problems too.

I don't think there is a a good solution. Maybe with radically shortened work hours and less pay disparity, the strives can strive off the job instead.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by shkkmo on Friday June 25, 2021 @06:01PM (#27636806)
Um, what? The degree to which a metric is directly tied to incentives absolutely impacts how much that metric will be gamed. It is not trite at all to caution that metrics that are critical to understanding your business should remain as decoupled as possible from incentives. This allows you to maintain the quality of the signals your metrics provide.

This isn't just theory. This is precisely why there are laws that prohibit rewarding people based on how they voted.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Ericson2314 on Saturday June 26, 2021 @12:50PM (#27643482)
So tell me this: how is the degree to which a given metric is tied to incentives meant to be varied?

> This is precisely why there are laws that prohibit rewarding people based on how they voted.

Voting is not an evaluation method of the voter: the voter is the one doing the evaluating. Because the powers should not discriminate between voters as you say, the vote cannot be used to evaluate the voters on and individual basis at all.

Maybe the answer is that: no individual/team assessments of any sort. That makes no incentives. But that also doesn't help with fine-grained strategy.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by shkkmo on Saturday June 26, 2021 @10:10PM (#27647893)
> So tell me this: how is the degree to which a given metric is tied to incentives meant to be varied?

...by not tieing incentives to it? I feel like I must not understand your question because this seems blindingly obvious...

> Voting is not an evaluation method of the voter: the voter is the one doing the evaluating. Because the powers should not discriminate between voters as you say, the vote cannot be used to evaluate the voters on and individual basis at all.

I don't even get where you got this strawman from.

> no individual/team assessments of any sort. That makes no incentives. But that also doesn't help with fine-grained strategy.

No, just dont use KPIs that are critical to understanding your business in assessments tied to incentices because that will distort your KPIs and make you less capable of understanding your business.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Ericson2314 on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:46PM (#27635398)
Actually I'm being silly, there is a good solution: Workplace Democracy. You can fool the higher ups come promotion time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.

Mondragon please get in the tech biz.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by andrey_utkin on Friday June 25, 2021 @05:54PM (#27636738)
Could you please show some real-world examples of this practice?
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Ericson2314 on Saturday June 26, 2021 @12:33PM (#27643312)
I am familiar with tech co-ops, but they are small, and so not good evidence.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by nsonha on Friday June 25, 2021 @08:22PM (#27637850)
Didn't Donal Trump fool a lot of people in a democracy? And how does this have anything to do with metrics?
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by Ericson2314 on Saturday June 26, 2021 @12:44PM (#27643419)
When there are just a few decision makers, a standard evaluation procedure is usually necessary for fairness / reproducibility.

When there as many evaluators as evaluatees, no standard evaluation procedure is needed on the theory that all the different ways and biases will cancel out. That doesn't work over time, as clearly America's electorate gets interested in different things, but I am less worried about that for co-ops.

The hope for co-ops vs state democracy is two fold.

Firstly, because people do work many hours at their job, but don't necessarily spend any time running the state, I hope they are more informed and engaged.

Secondly, the "both options are bad, I hate this" problem should be addressed by A, proportional representation (just like should be done with state democracy states), but also B of switching jobs. The barrier of switching jobs is much lower than immigrating, which ought to more than any thing else reign in defeatist apathy. And Co-ops can still fire people, remember.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by patrick451 on Saturday June 26, 2021 @02:21AM (#27639619)
No, he didn't fool us.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by nsonha on Saturday June 26, 2021 @03:04AM (#27639804)
yeah right, he didn't fool anyone

/s

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by alxlaz on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:23PM (#27633739)
> KPIs don't need to be tied to actual people, usually they are tied to teams, systems, projects, processes, etc.

Right, but my post, the post I was responding to, the post the post I was responding to was responding to, and the article in the link, was specifically about a situation where KPIs are tied to actual people. I'm not sure what you're arguing for or against.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by mbrodersen on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:49PM (#27638320)
I have seen many examples of KPI’s not working as intended. Do you have any real world examples of KPI’s that actually worked in practice (and not just in the make-believe heads of managers)?
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by fungiblecog on Friday June 25, 2021 @05:58PM (#27636770)
Measuring things is important, but turning them into a target is a disaster. The term KPI is generally used when the measure is a target.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by na85 on Friday June 25, 2021 @03:13PM (#27635051)
KPIs are actually very good when used properly, but they are (like many things) easily misused. For example if you provide a service then your obvious choice for the team's primary KPI would be service uptime.

Use SMART objectives (Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, Time-bounded) and set a realistic service uptime (e.g. how many nines you want in a given month/quarter/whatever) and KPIs directly enable good decisionmaking at all levels of the org.

Manager up in your grill about a choice you made? Point at the KPIs and say "this will help make it easier to meet our objectives for KPI 1.1" or whatever.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by jart on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:57AM (#27632405)
I didn't know open source programmers were subjected to those kinds of performance reviews. It sounds to me like the pandas have come and visited the penguins and there's a whole lot of shock and horror as the penguins get eaten because you'd think the pandas only want bamboo.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by sosborn on Friday June 25, 2021 @01:19PM (#27633689)
A great many open source programmers are being paid salary and sitting in a corporate cubicle.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by martincmartin on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:27AM (#27631988)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_indicator

Engineer's performance is measured, in part, by number of kernel commits. So, the number of kernel commits is a key performance indicator for the developer.

Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by sudhirj on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:37PM (#27635952)
Oh god no. It means their managers evaluate them on that metric. In this case, the company has set targets on how many Linux kernel patches employees should land.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by neilalexander on Friday June 25, 2021 @11:26AM (#27631972)
Key Performance Indicator.
Re:“Please don't waste maintainers' time on your KPI grabbin... by NAR8789 on Friday June 25, 2021 @04:37PM (#27635947)
TIL what ELI5 means