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Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by brundolf on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:20PM (#27610536)
This is a wonderfully nuanced thread on the subject from a trans woman in her thirties: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1385411504669790208.html

Edit: I just noticed the original poster already converted this into a longform post, so the "reader app" version isn't really necessary https://liminalwarmth.com/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-m...

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by fao_ on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:24PM (#27611318)
It's also important noting, semi-related to your post, that nobody is pushing for trans-surgeries for teenagers -- they are pushing for puberty blockers. What this means is that puberty is medically halted until the teenager is a legal age, when they will be able to decide which puberty they want.

This avoids a lot of dysphoria-provoking secondary sexual characteristics from progressing, and also avoids accidentally "transing" a cisgender teenager.

Nobody hesitates to give puberty blockers to cisgender teenagers, for other medical reasons. I knew a young girl who had to have puberty blockers because she had a precocious puberty and it was literally destroying her young body -- she was not old enough physically or mentally to be able to deal with it.

However, for whatever reason, there is a huge backlash against giving it to transgender teenagers, despite it representing the best and ultimate choice in self-determination -- "Take these for a few years and then when you are 18 you can decide which puberty you want to go through". It leaves room for the individual to decide. If the person decides against it before then, they can stop and puberty immediately resumes as normal.

When the suicide rates are as high as they are for transgender people, and there is the option of halting the things causing the suicidal feelings, the dysphoria, all of the physical and emotional and societal pain. Halting an onslaught of pain that is utterly soul destroying, and just giving them more time to make a choice and more of an informed decision, how can there be any empathically-cogent argument against that?

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by bradleyjg on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:50PM (#27611553)
What, if any, are the permanent consequences of being on puberty blockers from, say, 13-18?

I’d guess they’d be significant but that’s just a guess.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by pseudalopex on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:24PM (#27612366)
Decreased bone density is a concern. This is monitored. It can be mitigated with supplements and exercise. And it isn't known if it's permanent or only for the duration of treatment as far as I know.

AMAB patients have less penile tissue for vaginoplasty. They have other options though. I don't think anyone has studied mature penile size in AMAB patients who decided to go through male puberty. Few do.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:54PM (#27612976)
So an "AMAB patient" who takes puberty blockers never develops into an adult man and would require surgery to simulate the appearance of being an adult man if he decided he wanted that?

And people insist that these drugs are harmless?

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:09PM (#27613078)
You're speculating without data and catastrophising. No drug given for any condition is harmless or without risk, don't be daft. It's all about the benefits outweighing the risk, and taking responsibility for that is at the heart of what it means to practice medicine; which is also between a doctor and their patient. You know very well that the risk of not treating the condition is suicide and long-term mental health problems - not to mention a worsening of dysphoria symptoms. Whether or not the patient is willing to risk that potential outcome and other risks later to almost eliminate their risk of psychological distress up to committing suicide now is up to the patient and their team of medical advisers. Not anyone else.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:13PM (#27613102)
It's neither speculating nor catastrophising. The risks are real and documented. A confused child cannot give informed consent in this situation:

"The primary risks of pubertal suppression in gender dysphoric youth treated with GnRH agonists include adverse effects on bone mineralization, compromised fertility, and unknown effects on brain development."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172

"GnRHa therapy prevents maturation of primary oocytes and spermatogonia and may preclude gamete maturation, and currently there are no proven methods to preserve fertility in early pubertal transgender adolescents."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319416/

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:32PM (#27613205)
> A confused child cannot give informed consent in this situation:

I'd imagine you take the position that a child seeking this care is always confused. Could this be mistaken? Your argument would be void, if so.

Further, the quotes you make from the studies you cite are misleadingly cherry-picked - the studies themselves do not support the conclusion you imply they do. They are both calls for further research - they are not studies which draw any conclusions about the risk/benefit trade-offs of treatment and they do not state that treatment should be withheld.

> "The primary risks of pubertal suppression in gender dysphoric youth treated with GnRH agonists include adverse effects on bone mineralization, compromised fertility, and unknown effects on brain development." -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172

No one denies this. Again, it comes down to benefits of treatment versus risks of no treatment.

> "GnRHa therapy prevents maturation of primary oocytes and spermatogonia and may preclude gamete maturation, and currently there are no proven methods to preserve fertility in early pubertal transgender adolescents." - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319416/

Same here.

Surely a patient and doctor have the right to decide to risk infertility or a lack of bone density later in life in order to prevent severe mental anguish and potential suicide now? Would you rather demand the child continue to suffer so that they can have, according to you - as though it were your decision for whatever creepy reason, the best chance of making more children they may not even want or strong bones they may not even use on account of having committed suicide before reaching adulthood?

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:46PM (#27613284)
> I'd imagine you take the position that a child seeking this care is always confused. Could this be mistaken? I'd conjecture that you believe this to be the case, because you don't address the simple fact that you assume that all children in this circumstance must be confused. If they are not, then they can give informed consent and your claim is void.

A child who insists that he is no longer a male (or never was) is definitely confused.

If that same child insists that he's black, even though both of his biological parents are white, would you take him at his word or save him from getting Dolezal'ed by an unforgiving woke mob?

Children don't make good decisions. Their brains are literally missing the hardware until about age 25. [1] We don't allow them to make permanent changes that they might regret.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by KittenInABox on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:58PM (#27613382)
I'm baffled by this because you're acting like not having puberty for a few years is a permanently regretful choice that can never be made by a medical professional assessing a child. If a medical professional assesses a child and determines a prescription of puberty blockers why should I give a shit?
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by darkerside on Thursday June 24, 2021 @05:59AM (#27615673)
If it's your child, went wouldn't you?
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:12PM (#27613493)
> A child who insists that he is no longer a male (or never was) is definitely confused.

Circular, self-reinforcing, argument. Invalid.

> If that same child insists that he's black, even though both of his biological parents are white, would you take him at his word or save him from getting Dolezal'ed by an unforgiving woke mob?

Non-sequitur. Dismissed. Child still in need of psychological treatment.

> Children don't make good decisions. Their brains are literally missing the hardware until about age 25. [1] We don't allow them to make permanent changes that they might regret.

Sure we do. All the time. We allow them to grow up - that's rather permanent. You're not upset about that. Of course, it just so happens to be something you don't personally disagree with, unlike the topic of discussion.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by sepin4 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:33AM (#27614577)
You allow them to grow up, how magnonimous of you.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:08AM (#27616892)
Allowing a child to grow up is like allowing a flower to bloom.

There isn't a moral equivalence between interfering in the process and allowing nature to run its course.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Friday June 25, 2021 @08:01PM (#27637719)
> There isn't a moral equivalence between interfering in the process and allowing nature to run its course.

Argument from naturality. The moral equivalence arises from the context and circumstance - not on whether one chooses to interfere or not.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:34PM (#27638231)
That isn't an objection.

Inaction doesn't require justification unless action is obligatory.

The decision to help a child mutilate himself is never obligatory (or even justifiable).

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by pseudalopex on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:05PM (#27613048)
No. Patients who stop taking puberty blockers and don't take other hormones go through puberty more or less like they would have without blockers.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:11PM (#27613098)
The research does not agree.

"The primary risks of pubertal suppression in gender dysphoric youth treated with GnRH agonists include adverse effects on bone mineralization, compromised fertility, and unknown effects on brain development."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172

"GnRHa therapy prevents maturation of primary oocytes and spermatogonia and may preclude gamete maturation, and currently there are no proven methods to preserve fertility in early pubertal transgender adolescents."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319416/

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by pseudalopex on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:25AM (#27614246)
I addressed bone density. The 1st paper said it wasn't clear if the effects were permanent. It identified several confounding factors in the relevant study. It went on to recommend monitoring, supplements, and exercise. It also said switching from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones at 14 instead of 16 would help.

The 1st paper said fertility may be compromised "if puberty is suppressed at an early stage and the patient completes phenotypic transition with the use of cross-sex hormones". Not if they decide not to transition. And cross sex hormones can compromise fertility on their own. The 2nd paper said "There is no substantiated evidence that GnRHa treatment for CPP impairs reproductive function or reduces fertility." Because those patients don't take cross sex hormones when they stop the blockers.

Unknown effects on brain development means no known effects. The only study mentioned found no significant detrimental effects.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by angus-prune on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:10PM (#27612257)
All the research I’ve seen shows no significant consequences to taking puberty blockers. Puberty proceeds as normal once the puberty blockers have been stopped. Puberty has quite a wide range of onset ages and this is not taking the range that far beyond the historical range.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by nahnahno on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:23PM (#27612358)
What research have you done? Because it doesn't take long to find evidence that they have a list of side effects including some not-so-innocuous ones, and the admission that research is lacking:

Possible long-term side effects of puberty blockers Lower bone density. To protect against this, we work to make sure every patient gets enough exercise, calcium and vitamin D, which can help keep bones healthy and strong. We also closely monitor patients’ bone density. Delayed growth plate closure, leading to slightly taller adult height. Less development of genital tissue, which may limit options for gender affirming surgery (bottom surgery) later in life. Other possible long-term side effects that are not yet known.

https://www.stlouischildrens.org/conditions-treatments/trans...

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by angus-prune on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:47PM (#27612932)
Quite extensive research actually. The overwhelming medical consensus is that puberty blockers are safe, and this is backed up by over three decades of their use in treating trans youth and even longer in treating precocious puberty.

I leave it to the reader to determine whether they think having to take vitamin supplement counts as a significant side-effects. I would note, however, that it is also important to put these side effects in context. The contraceptive pill, for instance, also has reduced bone density as a possible side-effect.

My reading of the research also does not indicate that it is majorly lacking. Medical research is written in a very conservative manner. Researchers avoid making claims beyond the limits of their research. This can look like doubt or uncertainty when it is not.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by nahnahno on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:53PM (#27613799)
> Researchers avoid making claims beyond the limits of their research.

My experience as a Ph.D. researchers is exactly this.

> This can look like doubt or uncertainty when it is not.

No, it is absolutely real uncertainty. The difference between knowing a topic and knowing something about it is vast, and in the space is sophistry.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:36PM (#27613224)
It's negligent that a hospital's website doesn't mention the severest consequence of puberty blockers: infertility.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by nahnahno on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:20PM (#27612339)
Because giving hormone suppressors to developing kids could have massive implications to their physical and mental development? Has there really been enough research on the subject to come up with a valid cost-benefit analysis?

> How can there be any emphatically-cogent argument…?

Because drugging little kids should be a last resort. Using big words doesn't change the need to be extremely cautious in doing something as serious as blocking puberty.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by KittenInABox on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:00PM (#27613401)
That's why we leave it up to the doctors to prescribe them?
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by sepin4 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:38AM (#27614593)
like the doctors don't have incentive to prescribe drugs...
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by zozbot234 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:09PM (#27611143)
A 77-fold tweet storm, that has got to be some kind of world record. It's surprising how much of it is just plain old common sense that would never be seen as sensitive or "political" in a halfway sane environment, stated in what comes off as a painfully diplomatic way, going to extreme lengths to not ruffle any feathers.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by Wowfunhappy on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:02PM (#27612194)
I really didn't read it that way. It was an earnest, heartfelt piece largely discussing the author's own experience.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by btilly on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:30PM (#27610658)
Thank you for posting it. Some definite food for thought.