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Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by pseudalopex on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @08:24PM (#27612366)
Decreased bone density is a concern. This is monitored. It can be mitigated with supplements and exercise. And it isn't known if it's permanent or only for the duration of treatment as far as I know.

AMAB patients have less penile tissue for vaginoplasty. They have other options though. I don't think anyone has studied mature penile size in AMAB patients who decided to go through male puberty. Few do.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:54PM (#27612976)
So an "AMAB patient" who takes puberty blockers never develops into an adult man and would require surgery to simulate the appearance of being an adult man if he decided he wanted that?

And people insist that these drugs are harmless?

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:09PM (#27613078)
You're speculating without data and catastrophising. No drug given for any condition is harmless or without risk, don't be daft. It's all about the benefits outweighing the risk, and taking responsibility for that is at the heart of what it means to practice medicine; which is also between a doctor and their patient. You know very well that the risk of not treating the condition is suicide and long-term mental health problems - not to mention a worsening of dysphoria symptoms. Whether or not the patient is willing to risk that potential outcome and other risks later to almost eliminate their risk of psychological distress up to committing suicide now is up to the patient and their team of medical advisers. Not anyone else.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:13PM (#27613102)
It's neither speculating nor catastrophising. The risks are real and documented. A confused child cannot give informed consent in this situation:

"The primary risks of pubertal suppression in gender dysphoric youth treated with GnRH agonists include adverse effects on bone mineralization, compromised fertility, and unknown effects on brain development."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172

"GnRHa therapy prevents maturation of primary oocytes and spermatogonia and may preclude gamete maturation, and currently there are no proven methods to preserve fertility in early pubertal transgender adolescents."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319416/

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:32PM (#27613205)
> A confused child cannot give informed consent in this situation:

I'd imagine you take the position that a child seeking this care is always confused. Could this be mistaken? Your argument would be void, if so.

Further, the quotes you make from the studies you cite are misleadingly cherry-picked - the studies themselves do not support the conclusion you imply they do. They are both calls for further research - they are not studies which draw any conclusions about the risk/benefit trade-offs of treatment and they do not state that treatment should be withheld.

> "The primary risks of pubertal suppression in gender dysphoric youth treated with GnRH agonists include adverse effects on bone mineralization, compromised fertility, and unknown effects on brain development." -https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172

No one denies this. Again, it comes down to benefits of treatment versus risks of no treatment.

> "GnRHa therapy prevents maturation of primary oocytes and spermatogonia and may preclude gamete maturation, and currently there are no proven methods to preserve fertility in early pubertal transgender adolescents." - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319416/

Same here.

Surely a patient and doctor have the right to decide to risk infertility or a lack of bone density later in life in order to prevent severe mental anguish and potential suicide now? Would you rather demand the child continue to suffer so that they can have, according to you - as though it were your decision for whatever creepy reason, the best chance of making more children they may not even want or strong bones they may not even use on account of having committed suicide before reaching adulthood?

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:46PM (#27613284)
> I'd imagine you take the position that a child seeking this care is always confused. Could this be mistaken? I'd conjecture that you believe this to be the case, because you don't address the simple fact that you assume that all children in this circumstance must be confused. If they are not, then they can give informed consent and your claim is void.

A child who insists that he is no longer a male (or never was) is definitely confused.

If that same child insists that he's black, even though both of his biological parents are white, would you take him at his word or save him from getting Dolezal'ed by an unforgiving woke mob?

Children don't make good decisions. Their brains are literally missing the hardware until about age 25. [1] We don't allow them to make permanent changes that they might regret.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3621648/

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by KittenInABox on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:58PM (#27613382)
I'm baffled by this because you're acting like not having puberty for a few years is a permanently regretful choice that can never be made by a medical professional assessing a child. If a medical professional assesses a child and determines a prescription of puberty blockers why should I give a shit?
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by darkerside on Thursday June 24, 2021 @05:59AM (#27615673)
If it's your child, went wouldn't you?
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @11:12PM (#27613493)
> A child who insists that he is no longer a male (or never was) is definitely confused.

Circular, self-reinforcing, argument. Invalid.

> If that same child insists that he's black, even though both of his biological parents are white, would you take him at his word or save him from getting Dolezal'ed by an unforgiving woke mob?

Non-sequitur. Dismissed. Child still in need of psychological treatment.

> Children don't make good decisions. Their brains are literally missing the hardware until about age 25. [1] We don't allow them to make permanent changes that they might regret.

Sure we do. All the time. We allow them to grow up - that's rather permanent. You're not upset about that. Of course, it just so happens to be something you don't personally disagree with, unlike the topic of discussion.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by sepin4 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @02:33AM (#27614577)
You allow them to grow up, how magnonimous of you.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Thursday June 24, 2021 @09:08AM (#27616892)
Allowing a child to grow up is like allowing a flower to bloom.

There isn't a moral equivalence between interfering in the process and allowing nature to run its course.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by justinjlynn on Friday June 25, 2021 @08:01PM (#27637719)
> There isn't a moral equivalence between interfering in the process and allowing nature to run its course.

Argument from naturality. The moral equivalence arises from the context and circumstance - not on whether one chooses to interfere or not.

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Friday June 25, 2021 @09:34PM (#27638231)
That isn't an objection.

Inaction doesn't require justification unless action is obligatory.

The decision to help a child mutilate himself is never obligatory (or even justifiable).

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by pseudalopex on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:05PM (#27613048)
No. Patients who stop taking puberty blockers and don't take other hormones go through puberty more or less like they would have without blockers.
Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by slumdev on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:11PM (#27613098)
The research does not agree.

"The primary risks of pubertal suppression in gender dysphoric youth treated with GnRH agonists include adverse effects on bone mineralization, compromised fertility, and unknown effects on brain development."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5290172

"GnRHa therapy prevents maturation of primary oocytes and spermatogonia and may preclude gamete maturation, and currently there are no proven methods to preserve fertility in early pubertal transgender adolescents."

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31319416/

Re:A backlash against gender ideology is starting in univers... by pseudalopex on Thursday June 24, 2021 @01:25AM (#27614246)
I addressed bone density. The 1st paper said it wasn't clear if the effects were permanent. It identified several confounding factors in the relevant study. It went on to recommend monitoring, supplements, and exercise. It also said switching from puberty blockers to cross sex hormones at 14 instead of 16 would help.

The 1st paper said fertility may be compromised "if puberty is suppressed at an early stage and the patient completes phenotypic transition with the use of cross-sex hormones". Not if they decide not to transition. And cross sex hormones can compromise fertility on their own. The 2nd paper said "There is no substantiated evidence that GnRHa treatment for CPP impairs reproductive function or reduces fertility." Because those patients don't take cross sex hormones when they stop the blockers.

Unknown effects on brain development means no known effects. The only study mentioned found no significant detrimental effects.