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Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by chitowneats on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:14AM (#27601345)
It doesn't go without saying. Which is why you said it. The pro-trans movement starts from the assumption that any disagreement with their ideology is "harm". They've bullied everyone into accepting what is transparently a ridiculous situation; often by alleging bad faith. I'm very happy to see someone from professional women's weightlifting refer to this as a "bad joke".
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by vore on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:30AM (#27601429)
"Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful?

If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss the plight of trans people at large.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by chitowneats on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:39AM (#27601485)
I have no issue with how they choose to self identify. I accept trans-identifying individuals and I will use whichever pronouns they ask of me.

What I have an issue with is this type of behavior where they turn things upside down without any care for others. In this case, they're stealing glory from and seriously hampering the careers of lifelong female athletes.

Imagine lifting since you were a teenage girl, and someone else in their mid 30's, who would not have qualified for the men's competition, comes along to take your Olympic medal after going through a sex change procedure. It's deeply disrespectful to women. It requires a certain zealotry to bully your way into female spaces like this.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by vore on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:46AM (#27601528)
I apologize for misunderstanding your initial point: couching the pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large and if that is not your intent then I retract my initial comment.

That said, I don't really agree with this clarification either: no trans woman is setting out to have gender reassignment to bully their way into competing against women who were lifting since they were teenagers. I think you are attributing this to malice that is simply not there, and it is only an artifact of unfortunate circumstance. Trans women certainly don't want to be in this situation either: I'm sure they would much rather be born biologically female and compete that way!

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by junon on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:05AM (#27601629)
> pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large

This is the problem. There's no difference to people. Arguing any nuanced part of the conversation is often met with exaggerated reactions of "you're anti-trans" or "you're dismissing transexualism as a whole", which is not the case.

So yes, the pro-trans movement on many online spaces is very ideological - they even claim it themselves (transmedicalism vs. gender identity, etc). Very little of it these days is based on science or medical prognosis.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by taurath on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:36AM (#27602558)
OTOH very little of how our society bases its treatment of trans people based on science or medical prognosis. The best evidence there is is that dysphoria is real and gender affirming therapies including medical transition is an effective treatment. Yet access to that treatment varies extremely widely, being treated inherently as a second or third class citizen both by culture and in a lot of cases by law.

I do understand as well your reticence around the ideological space that a lot of online spaces take place in. To that I’d just say that this stuff is fairly new, and you have a lot of young people finding and differentiating their identities as they’re going through quite a process.

My opinion is frankly it’s a wonderful thing, to have it so people can prioritize their emotional well being enough to not have their natural individual differentiations beat out of them as so many cultures have done. In doing so, discovering how much of a thing gender dysphoria is for some, and allowing them to lead much much better lives.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:54PM (#27612975)
Per your last point, the response can swing the other way and also cause harm in some cases: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by taurath on Thursday June 24, 2021 @06:19PM (#27624598)
Yes, and detransitioners happen and should be (and are as far as I've experienced) supported. But their argument a bit like if I said that all elective surgery should be illegal because I regret mine. For every story like this you can find a thousand who are waiting years to get any amount of treatment. The UK is well known for having some of the most stringent policies and heavy usage of gatekeeping before anyone gets treatment - FAR more than in the US.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by chitowneats on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @02:53AM (#27601556)
I respectfully disagree. Hubbard has no business in this competition. It's selfish for her to do this. She is "johnny come lately" to women's weightlifting and has several decades of male puberty under her belt. These photos are actually tragic to look at.

If we're talking about someone who transitions in their teens and has no other options for sport in their adolescence, I would agree that's a much more difficult and ambiguous situation.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by blindmute on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @10:36AM (#27605032)
The trans person's intent doesn't matter. What matters is that they are inserting themselves into female competition at an immense advantage. The fact of the matter is that if you allow biological men into female competition, females will never win anything. That is literally why there are sex separated sports. Females cannot compete with males at the highest level of sport, this is just a fact. I don't think we should be destroying the sports dreams of half the population to appease the trans people. It sucks for them, but quite frankly I don't care, because there is no better solution than to exclude them.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by strange_loops on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:55PM (#27607671)
In how many areas of life do we "just exclude them" when speaking of minorities to create an ideal ecosystem? This is a slippery slope.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by blindmute on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @06:50PM (#27611561)
As many as are necessary for the coherence of society. They are welcome to enter into the open (mens) division of a sport. They are not welcome to enter the women's division, because they are not women. We already had this debate a few decades ago and decided women need their own sports divisions. I'm sorry that these people want very badly to play in the women's league, but they are not women, and so they should not be allowed in that league, for all the reasons that engendered the women's league in the first place.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by exporectomy on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:06AM (#27601637)
Maybe those natural females were never the best women and the trans are just taking their rightful place after having been excluded.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by chitowneats on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:11AM (#27601673)
This ^ is exactly the type of zealotry I'm referring to.

Hubbard has been free to do olympic weightlifting her entire life. Against similarly bodied individuals (men).

I too am excluded from competing in women's weightlifting contests. That is absolutely for the best (though everyone we're talking about here can likely lift more than I can).

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by mssundaram on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:03AM (#27601617)
I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by leephillips on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:18AM (#27601723)
Among some populations it may be a social contagion: https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3

What other animals have a similar level of consciousness? You can‘t form the idea that you are “in the wrong body” unless that idea has been provided to you by your culture. You need linguistic and social support to even have the concept.

EDIT: Oh, you may be interested in the phenomenon of what you might call “trans” non-human animals: individuals who behave like those of the opposite sex. Apparently in some species their physical characteristics can even change, such as female lions that grow manes. But nobody is confused enough to say “trans lady lions are lady lions“; that confusion is reserved for humans. In mammals, the sex can not change. But it‘s an interesting phenomenon.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by makeworld on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:02AM (#27604050)
Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage

If you have a peer-reviewed study, that would be much more worthwhile to look at.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by honkdaddy on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:52AM (#27604577)
Here's a study referenced in the book. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/

The layman's explanation of the phenomenon is that parents observe a rapidly onset expression of gender dysphoria in their teenage daughters which "seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same timeframe."

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by makeworld on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:42PM (#27610052)
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by jl6 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:29AM (#27601798)
Some people have tried to study this phenomenon but have been shut down by accusations that such research would be transphobic.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/academics-ar...

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by makeworld on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:05AM (#27604079)
What has been shut down specifically? That letter is very vague.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by teraflop on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:44AM (#27601879)
Are you similarly confident that the dramatic rise in left-handedness in western cultures over the past ~200 years is due to factors other than awareness and perception?
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by eulenteufel on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:01PM (#27606835)
This is just a personal anecdote:

In my puberty I had a strong feeling of rather being a girl and this caused significant mental anguish and some self harm. If had known as much about transgender people back then as I do know I would have likely transitioned then.

Today I'm pretty okay with being a man. I still sometimes have problems with it but not in the same order of magnitude.

From these personal experiences I think it is plausible that more people transition because more people are aware of the possibility and knowing other trans people in their age. I have no idea how big that group is however.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by kyleee on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:58PM (#27607704)
Though it may be an unanswerable question (and maybe too personal, please don't feel obligated to share), do you think you would have been better off transitioning?
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by mensetmanusman on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:50PM (#27612943)
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

This is an interesting case that went through the UK courts. Very analogous to OP’s situation had it happened today.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by yerwhat01010 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:14AM (#27602087)
Abigail Shrier's recent book Irreversible Damage explores this question. I highly recommend it.
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by makeworld on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:05AM (#27604087)
As I mentioned in another comment:

Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage

If you have a peer-reviewed study, that would be much more worthwhile to look at.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by honkdaddy on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:53AM (#27604589)
As I mentioned in another comment, multiple studies have been done. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/
Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by makeworld on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @04:41PM (#27610041)
That study has issues, does it not? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/

Interviewing parents seems like a problematic basis for an entirely new condition to me.

Re:Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Ol... by chitowneats on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @09:24AM (#27604264)
There is severe hesitation to fund this research by the psychiatric and medical establishment.