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Re:California will pay off all past due rent by emodendroket on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:34PM (#27594595)
I do find the rush to make landlords whole a little strange. Isn’t the concept here that you’re making a speculative investment and the risk is what justifies the profit?
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:38PM (#27594649)
The government changed the rules of the investment, though. Before the eviction moratorium, landlords could at least predict the maximum amount of rent they would lose due to non-payment before they could evict someone and find new tenants. The moratorium removed that option, changing the risk profile dramatically without warning. That’s the issue.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by __blockcipher__ on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:57PM (#27594876)
It really scares me that this even needs to be explained to people. The government is outright stealing from landlords. They literally made it illegal (while also not passing an actual law, as far as I know [which is how every COVID restriction worked as well]) to evict somebody.

So many people have this juvenile notion of what a landlord is, too. They seem to think the only type of landlord is a mega-tycoon that owns hundreds of properties. Don't get me wrong, I am against all forms of theft so it's still wrong to steal from them, but it makes it a lot more apparent how wrong it is when you're stealing from the old Grandma that has 1 or 2 extra properties that she rents out.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by JKCalhoun on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:31PM (#27596086)
1) I wonder how many landlords would have evicted but found their hands tied by the government. I mean, who was going to move in?

2) You call this notion of a landlord as a mega-tycoon juvenile but then present the equally juvenile (in my opinion) idea that land lords are just old Grandma with 1 or 2 extra properties she rents out.

1 or 2 extra properties? Wow, grandma. Must be nice.

And I think the data will show that the trend in landlords is in fact toward mega-tycoons. (Sort of like the trend in farming that used to be old Grandpa with 1 or 2 acres.)

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by spookthesunset on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:53PM (#27598338)
I totally agree. I don’t understand what isn’t clear about this. The rules completely changed against the landlord. They got completely hosed by this.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by emodendroket on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:37PM (#27595411)
If a change in the law causes a stock I own to crater in value, is the government “outright stealing from” me?
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by gruez on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:32PM (#27596113)
In some cases, yes. Hence why trade deals contain IDS provisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlem...
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by nybble41 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:28PM (#27596044)
That obviously depends on what the change was. If the business of the company in question was predicated on selling services to the government and the law changes such that they no longer require the company's services, then no, that is not stealing from you. If the change in the law is that the company is henceforth required to provide service without payment then yes, absolutely, that is stealing from you.

The government doesn't owe you a particular market price, but when they interfere with your perfectly voluntary private business dealings (or just outright take your stuff for public use without just compensation, which is basically what happened here) that is a clear-cut example of theft.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:04PM (#27597813)
They didn't interfere with voluntary business dealings. They took away a service (evictions) that you were expecting the government to provide to assist your business dealings.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by setr on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @08:45PM (#27599327)
>They took away a service (evictions) that you were expecting the government to provide to assist your business dealings.

That's not a service. The government requires you to do so by law, because they don't want landlords doing it themselves. They didn't take away some notary service you could get done by AAA -- they took away a fundamental means of doing business.

It's like claiming that the government took away a service (police) that you were expecting to have around. The police literally exist, and are required to be used, because they've already removed the option of self-policing.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by nybble41 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @05:26PM (#27610610)
> The government requires you to do so by law, because they don't want landlords doing it themselves.

Exactly. The issue is not merely that the government is no longer carrying out evictions for landlords. Leaving landlords to hire their own security teams and evict squatters at their own expense would be fine. What the government is doing, though, is employing force to actively prevent landlords from evicting squatters, which makes the government an accessory to the crime.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by gameman144 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @12:15AM (#27600721)
Wait, how was there not interference with voluntary business dealings?

A renter and a landlord voluntary sign a contract. The renter says "I will give you $XXXX a month for 12 months", and the landlord says "I will provide a livable home for you for the period of 12 months." Both agree: voluntary business dealing.

Now the government comes in and says "Hey renter, you no longer have to fulfill your half of that agreement, but the landlord still does". The government has directly interfered with the voluntary business dealing between the renter and the landlord.

Consider the counterexample: the government comes in and says "Hey landlord, you no longer have to keep the home livable or do repairs, but the renter still needs to pay rent." This would be just as much an interference with voluntary business dealings as what really happened, and everyone seems to agree on this point.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:10PM (#27596548)
The issue here isn't the value of the property going down.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by emodendroket on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:33PM (#27596828)
So imagine I lost my dividend, which is a more plausible analogy than many of the others being offered up.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by WalterBright on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:10PM (#27595830)
It's analogous to the government declaring it is ok to steal from a supermarket. The free market relies on the government protecting property rights. When there is a significant risk that the government is not going to protect property rights, and even legalize outright theft, the end result is commonplace in such countries:

Businesses refuse to invest in those countries, and they have poor economies that people try to escape from and move to the US.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by emodendroket on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:23PM (#27595983)
Landlords are welcome to sell their property (at a likely tidy profit from what they bought it at, I might add, given current prices) and go elsewhere, if that’s what they would like to do.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by WalterBright on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:24PM (#27596000)
The price they can get for it will be reduced by the new risk of rent moratoriums.

There's a general exodus of landlords from Seattle going on due to a series of punitive laws passed against them by the Seattle City Council.

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/editorials/stop-new-ren...

What this means for renters is less places available for rent, at much higher prices.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by emodendroket on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:06PM (#27596505)
Maybe it will but the current market shows the exact opposite trend.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by dmitrygr on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:38PM (#27594648)
Yes but as a landlord I am supposed to be able to remove a non-paying tenant. They took away that ability, so now landlord HAD TO provide free housing to someone while still making mortgage payments.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by lucian1900 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:18PM (#27595164)
Or default on the mortgage.

You’re not proving housing, you’re preventing people from having housing unless they pay you. When housing wasn’t a speculative investment it was far cheaper and far fewer people were forced to rent to make someone else money for no labour.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by dmitrygr on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:34PM (#27597520)
So you've never heard of duplexes? Default -> homeless
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by _-david-_ on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:48PM (#27597648)
Some landlords rent out a room in their own house they live in. If they stopped renting there would be no additional housing available.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by lucian1900 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @05:53PM (#27597695)
Couldn’t those that are currently such landlords have been incentivised to purchase smaller homes, making more large ones available? Or alternatively, some large homes could be subdivided.

Why should tenants pay for the greed of landlords? They get paid for doing nothing, the least they could do is bear their own risks.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by dmitrygr on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:17PM (#27597946)
Ok, but how do we handle this until we completely remake the world in precisely the way that lucian1900 thinks it should be?
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by lucian1900 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:43AM (#27601877)
I’m just pointing out that landlords are exploiting tenants and other arrangements are possible and have existed.

Building social housing, removing incentives for buy-to-rent, taxing second homes and capping rents to a fraction of minimum wage are all measures that can be introduced gradually on the way to de-commodifying housing.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by _-david-_ on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @10:56PM (#27600282)
They may not have bought a smaller house. Sometimes people buy a larger house because they have kids. When their kids move out they may rent out the rooms. While moving to a smaller place may make good financial sense in some ways, some people don't like to move. They like their neighborhood and house and all.

You just sit on your computer programming or whatever you do. That is just getting paid for typing which is not real work. Maybe you should stop being greedy and just type for free.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by lucian1900 on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @03:48AM (#27601916)
A home that later becomes too big could be exchanged for one that is appropriately sized, so a larger family could have a home available. However you spin it, you can’t get away from the exploitation.

And don’t be disingenuous, I get paid for labour while landlords get paid for ownership.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by _-david-_ on Thursday June 24, 2021 @04:40PM (#27623450)
What do you mean "exchanged"? Are you suggesting people should just trade a larger (and more expensive) house for a cheaper one? Why on earth would anybody want to do that? They may sell their house and buy a smaller one, but "exchange"? Based on this comment and others of yours it sounds like you don't believe people should own land.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by lucian1900 on Thursday June 24, 2021 @04:50PM (#27623580)
I think everyone should have a decent home. Homes that are too big for their occupants are an inefficient use of a limited resource. I don’t think it’s fair that some would get paid for no labour because of this mid-allocation.
Re:California will pay off all past due rent by xf1cf on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:07PM (#27595020)
Why? Landlords were forced by edict to keep non-paying tenants while simultaneously footing the bill. This is completely unfair to landlords and makes the "speculative investment" argument into a government decree.

The risk could not legally be mitigated. Otherwise, landlords would have evicted en masse everyone who couldn't pay after some period of time. I am friends with a few people who own houses. They were happy to help as long as their tenants could provide at least some payment. It's better in the long run to keep good tenants than to evict them even if it costs money in the short term. This isn't true in general however, and several places have toxic tenants who have refused to pay and are taking advantage of the moratorium.

This is the literal definition of theft by decree. Making landlords whole should be top priority if their intention is to save the housing market. Imagine if they didn't - what would happen? Landlords would require stellar credit, several months payment up front, and regular financial checks. This all assuming they just don't pack up and sell their property (which has gone up significantly in value) thereby reducing the available places to rent.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by emodendroket on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @04:58PM (#27597114)
> Imagine if they didn't - what would happen? Landlords would require stellar credit, several months payment up front, and regular financial checks. This all assuming they just don't pack up and sell their property (which has gone up significantly in value) thereby reducing the available places to rent.

So the nightmare scenario here is more people own their homes?

I’m not sure I see why that’s bad, but it seems just as likely that they’re selling to other landlords more able to handle the vicissitudes of the market.

Re:California will pay off all past due rent by treeman79 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:44PM (#27594721)
The state caused the harm to landlords. So it can be argued the state is responsible for the problem.

Imagine your neighbor sneezes. So the bank sends thugs to take steak your rent money. Then sending police to take your house for non payment.

All the while blaming you as the problem.

At some point the absurdity has to be dealt with.

Yes this argument is flawed. But so is the whole shutting down the economy thing.