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Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by zargon on Monday June 21, 2021 @10:54PM (#27587431)
An alternative interpretation is that there are no current "performance hits", just the legitimate performance is now (better) known. Those former "performance gains" were cheated, akin to Volkswagen emissions tests.

Edit: it was Volkswagen not Volvo.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by johncolanduoni on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:06PM (#27587498)
It’s news to me that Intel, AMD, and various ARM licensees all knew about these problems (and vague “the ~truth~ side channels are out there” handwaves that were made for many years don’t count) when the requisite speculation changes were made 20 years ago and left them in anyway. And that still isn’t quite an equivalence to the Volvo emission tests, since the processors don’t try to detect if you’re testing them and change behavior.
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by zargon on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:21PM (#27587587)
It's my understanding that the bulk of the vulnerabilities in question are not present to near the degree on AMD and ARM. If AMD and ARM could do things mostly properly, why couldn't Intel?
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by rincebrain on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:45PM (#27587752)
There are a number of the vulnerabilities that affect other platforms than Intel x86 (including some POWER and ARM), though you're correct, a good amount of those disclosed are specific to Intel. But there has also been at least one that was AMD specific, too.[1]

I hypothesize it could have come down to "well, we made this type of decision this way before, and the world didn't fall down, so we can probably make it that way again, right?" Since these aren't formally proven systems, to some extent deciding whether an optimization is safe is going to be a judgment call - and if you go for "well, if this assumption is false, we're already doomed because we did X elsewhere...", the results could look like this.

Or maybe not, I've never worked for a chip design house.

[1] - https://mlq.me/download/takeaway.pdf

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by johncolanduoni on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @12:09AM (#27587897)
Or simply none of them were aware that the kinds of speculation they were doing were capable of producing exploitable vulnerabilities. It took security researchers a long time to find these issues, and the kind of speculation that the original Spectre and Meltdown exploited were well known outside of the chipmakers for over a decade. Intel was simply more aggressive at that particular avenue of performance improvement.
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by chii on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:26PM (#27587618)
> former "performance gains" were cheated

why would cache performance be considered a cheat?

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by danielheath on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:28PM (#27587636)
Because it makes several of the isolation features the processor ships with useless, without documenting it?
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by jcelerier on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:06AM (#27588507)
But isolation had never been sold as a security feature, only as a "user-space crash can't bring down the kernel", no ?
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by msbarnett on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @06:17PM (#27597942)
No. Isolation has always been a security feature, not a reliability feature.

Consider that local privilege escalations are generally (and I'd say correctly) treated as critical severity issues. Any general purpose process memory read-isolation leak is a quick route to a local privilege escalation, so how could isolation be anything other than a security feature? In its absence, you might as well run everything as root and there would be no point whatsoever to caring about privilege escalations.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by jcelerier on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:06PM (#27606925)
> Consider that local privilege escalations are generally (and I'd say correctly) treated as critical severity issues. Any general purpose process memory read-isolation leak is a quick route to a local privilege escalation, so how could isolation be anything other than a security feature?

https://xkcd.com/1200/

> In its absence, you might as well run everything as root

this is what 99% of people with a home computer did until windows XP (and even then most people today run under an admin account of some sorts on their computers)

isolation between users is only relevant for clusters, it's a super minority usecase versus what is the main thing that matters, home computers which only have one human user anyways. But I guess you'd disagree with Stallman's paragraph at the end here: https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/coreutils-4.5.4/html_nod...

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by msbarnett on Wednesday June 23, 2021 @01:25PM (#27607230)
Yes, I 100% disagree with Stallman's goofy conflation of OS permissions segmentation with aristocracies, and think the idea that the permissions model of the early 1980s is at all workable in the internet era is profoundly, stunningly naive.

The XKCD argument misses the point entirely; if someone p0wns your browser, they p0wn your browser, but what we're talking about is allowing every VSCode extension and Docker image someone installs to read your GMail. It's an absolute dipshit idea that would make every current security problem with computing orders of magnitude worse.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by jcelerier on Thursday June 24, 2021 @08:16AM (#27616436)
> but what we're talking about is allowing every VSCode extension and Docker image someone installs to read your GMail.

I don't understand, this is already the status quo today. Any vscode extension can access your filesystem and connect to a socket, so it can just pipe your ~/.cache/mozilla to some server in russia, and even read the memory of any of your processes through /proc/$PID/maps. Ditto for any shell script you run, any build script for any software you clone from github before building it, unless you are running Qubes OS.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by msbarnett on Thursday June 24, 2021 @12:46PM (#27620201)
C’mon. Ability to read the cache is obviously a much much lower threat than the ability to read the browser processes’ memory – the browser doesn’t cache your GMail password.

Also let’s stop here and admire just how far you’ve shifted the goal posts: we’ve gone from “memory isolation isn’t a security measure it’s actually just for reliability” to “ok sure it’s obviously a security critical measure, but check out this boneheaded RMS rant and also what about the lower threat value data that gets cached, what about that. And do we even need security or can we just go back to the 1980s with our Amigas when everything was cool and advanced persistent threats didn’t exist, man”.

Pick a coherent point you’re trying to argue and some kind of intelligible threat model, at least. If we’re concerned about leaking filesystem data, there’s more aggressive sandboxing measures which several OSes employ, but they even more strongly rely on memory isolation, not less.

The point, which you seem to have conceded several posts ago, remains: Memory isolation is a security measure, not just or even primarily a reliability issue.

Also you don’t seem to understand what you’re trying to talk about, because:

> and even read the memory of any of your processes through /proc/$PID/maps

This requires root permissions (or for you to have explicitly changed /proc/sys/kernel/yama/ptrace_scope to a non-default value to allow processes to PTRACE_ATTACH to arbitrary non-child processes, which you shouldn’t do on a general purpose internet-facing machine unless you are a clinically insane person) for the obvious reason that this would be incredibly dangerous otherwise. Proving once again my entire point:

Memory isolation is a security measure.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by nix23 on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @03:14AM (#27588855)
Isolation (Rings) was first implemented in Multics (first in software, then in hardware..a bit like today (user-mode and kernel/hypervisor mode)), foremost for security second for stability.
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by motardo on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:22PM (#27587594)
For the record, it was Volkswagen that cheated the emissions test, not Volvo
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by zargon on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:30PM (#27587651)
Thanks! I wasn't sure I remembered correctly but didn't immediately see the answer in a quick google.
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by nitrogen on Monday June 21, 2021 @11:52PM (#27587803)
didn't immediately see the answer in a quick google.

Whether happening organically or through the magic of reputation management, that's pretty alarming, actually. Give it another few years and nobody will even remember.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by toomanybeersies on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @12:36AM (#27588030)
If GP searched for something along the lines of "Volvo emissions cheating", then I hardly think it's alarming that the VW scandal didn't come up.
Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by pope_meat on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @01:59AM (#27588466)
Just searched "emissions cheating" and uh, is like, every auto maker cheating on emissions? I remember the VW scandal, but this quick search leaves me to conclude that VW is only the most memorable one that got mass media attention of late.

But hey, we love our corporate overlords, they only want what's best for us, the shareholders.

(Not actually a shareholder of anything)

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by paganel on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:53AM (#27588746)
> Just searched "emissions cheating" and uh, is like, every auto maker cheating on emissions?

More or less, yes, they all did.

As an European I'd say it's a shared blame, though, as in the officials around Europe (both at national and at the EU level) who had very strongly pushed for diesel for the previous two to three decades (mostly through taxation/pricing policies) also deserve a very big part of this blame.

The Americans got it right (especially states like California) when relegating diesel to mostly commercial/truck/public transport use, but the hybris and the "we know better than the silly Americans when it comes to the environment" prevailed in the end, that's why it took Dieselgate and at least a couple of decades for those officials to reverse their past mistakes.

Re:Did Windows 10 slow down with each feature update? by formerly_proven on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @02:10AM (#27588535)