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Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by retrocryptid on Monday June 21, 2021 @02:56PM (#27582668)
This isn't news, but what they don't mention is managers will set up their own "private" PIPs to frighten workers into doing what they want.

It's not news that the big-A wants its software engineers working 60 hours per week. I interviewed for a principle engineer role and everything seemed to be going well. But when the offer came it said "Software Engineer II." I asked about that and they said... "Oh, don't worry. We have to hire you in at a lower grade 'cause we can only hire so many principal engineers per quarter. you'll get automatically promoted at the end of the next quarter." The money was still pretty good so I didn't think anything about it.

Eventually I figured out that they had stiffed me on typical stock options. The whole bait-and-switch thing was their way to try and hire Sr. people for Jr. engineer's option grants.

Of course I wasn't automatically promoted and my boss mentioned, "oh yeah, you have to do a Dev III project to get promoted to Software Developer III first." And they expected me to do that project on my own time. sigh

Then in the middle of doing a software project for Amazon on my own fucking time I get moved under a different manager. The first thing he does is say I've been underperforming and he was going to put me on a PIP (I had perfect reviews the year before.) How the hell can you review my work two weeks after I start working for you?

About this time I bumped into a former-coworker who mentioned how happy he was after leaving Amazon. So I say to myself "f** this sh*" and quit in a couple weeks after getting a decent offer from another company to do consulting.

About two months later our HR rep returns from vacation and calls me up asking why I quit and I tell her it was clear I wasn't Amazon material, having had perfect reviews for a year and then being put on a PIP. She then asks "you were on a PIP? that's news to me," and another friend I knew in HR tells me managers will do this slimy thing to get more performance out of people during the holidays where they tell them they're on a PIP, but they really aren't. If you're on a PIP, HR will be involved.

Amateur ass-clowns. Everyone talks about how much dosh you'll bank at AMZN. Not really. I now make about the same amount in salary, but have a significantly higher equity stake in a smaller company.

It might be okay for your first or second job (it's not all negative, there's plenty of opportunity to learn about computing at scale.) But you're going to be working 55-60 hours per week to be promoted and told you're on a PIP just before Thanksgiving.

Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by JMTQp8lwXL on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:24PM (#27583126)
> you'll get automatically promoted at the end of the next quarter

Unless it's in writing, you should never, ever, ever take a statement like this at face value.

Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by 0zymandias on Monday June 21, 2021 @04:58PM (#27584391)
Another tactic that Amazon recruiters use a lot to convince you to take a shitty role:

"You are coming in at level X, but this role is actually scoped at level X+1."

In reality, it means nothing and you can get promoted in lots of different ways. It is just a trick that unethical recruiters and managers play.

Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by JMTQp8lwXL on Monday June 21, 2021 @05:17PM (#27584624)
That statement implies, in no uncertain terms, that the expectation is more work for less pay. It's a flowery way of telling the candidate they're getting a bad deal. If you the scope is X+1, and you pay me X+1, we have no issue.
Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by nunez on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:43PM (#27583407)
100% agree. "You'll have a direct path to promotion in _x_ time" is a common sales tactic recruiters use.
Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by zzyzxd on Monday June 21, 2021 @06:03PM (#27585129)
Curious about how effective this kind of "private" PIP can be?

PIP is scary to foreign workers who are on temporary worker visa. Losing a job means that you may have to leave the country, which is a life changing event.

It is so scary that, in immigrant communities I am familiar with, it becomes a common sense to not to even dream about getting out of PIP. If your manager put you on PIP, start looking for a new job immediately because you don't want to risk losing your immigration status.

Don't try too hard on the PIP project, don't try to please your manager, only put reasonable amount of effort into the project so they don't have a reason to fire you immediately, and try to get the f** out as fast as you can.

Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by Izikiel43 on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:25PM (#27583146)
Thanks for giving a great example for me to add Amazon to my "never work there" list.
Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by silicon2401 on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:42PM (#27583392)
I was contacted by an Amazon recruiter and did a brief interview. Rather than a screening call like most companies I've interacted with, the recruiter wanted me to immediately fill out their application and start on the technical assessment, as if it didn't even cross her mind that I might not be interested in working for them. I filled out the app as it seemed required for the initial call, and then when I explicitly asked, I learned that supposedly most people work 40h weeks. I don't blame her for doing her job and trying to get applications, but the complete lack of sincerity was astonishing. I had already decided I'd never work for a FAANG based on other experiences I've learned about online and through friends, but it was especially impactful to experience the culture personally.
Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by bsder on Monday June 21, 2021 @07:01PM (#27585669)
> you'll get automatically promoted at the end of the next quarter

This is always a HUGE RED FLAG. Never agree to this. Ever. For any reason. Even if you can get it in writing, you can be laid off, fired, etc.

Get the title when you walk in or don't walk in.

The problem is that titles generally have salary bands. You'd much rather be at the low end of a better title because the high end of the band is higher.

The flip side is that you better know that you can actually do the job. If you come in as a Principal, you're going to be expected to work as a Principal and not a Senior. If you're work is only up to Senior, you're going to get fired.

I, sadly, had to fire a guy who got into this position somehow. He was a nice guy. He could do Senior work. But he was at HR Principal level. We were a startup struggling to survive and I didn't have the time to teach him. So, I had to fire him to free up my slot so I could get an actual Principal that I desperately needed.

He took my advice to land somewhere else as a Senior, and I gave him a nice recommendation. He got pretty close to the same salary and killed it for them at that level.

Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by trhway on Monday June 21, 2021 @03:44PM (#27583419)
>This isn't news, but what they don't mention is managers will set up their own "private" PIPs to frighten workers into doing what they want.

Diabolical thing. I remember laughing (other place, other times) as my manager friend told me about a manager in the org practicing it. It was an exception though, and I see how it may be a regular practice at AMZN.

Re:Internal Amazon documents shed light on how company press... by coalslaw on Tuesday June 22, 2021 @10:38AM (#27592201)
This sounds weird.

You interviewed for a PE role but instead was offered and somehow accepted a SDE2 position?

That's a 2 level downgrade and would mean a very different role for you with significantly lower compensation.